Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
croûte d\'oxydation
English translation:
layer of oxidation
Added to glossary by
angela3thomas
Feb 25, 2017 22:09
7 yrs ago
French term
croûte d'oxydation
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
Metal artifacts
Hello!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors - The catalog entries.
CONTEXT: Mirror of yellow copper or brass & ivory. CONSERVATION. Disque: patine bistrée avec des ***croûtes d'oxydation***. La tige ou soie manque. Pour remonter la pièce, on a rapporté, de nos jours, une tige de cuivre. -- Manche: jauni et maculé de bitume. La matière est éclatée et fendue par endroits.
IN THE SINGULAR: CONSERVATION. Disque intact, mais couvert d'une ***croûte d'oxydation***. -- Manche légèrement fendillé.
ATTEMPT: PRESERVATION. Disk: greyish-brown/bister-colored patina with ***oxidation crusts/layers?**. The tang or stem is missing. To reassemble the piece, a copper tang was recently added. -- Handle: yellowed and stained with bitumen. The material/fabric is ruptured?/pitted? and cracked/split in some places.
ISSUE: Unsure if this is the correct term as, in Googling, I seem to only find oxidation crusts in geological contexts. I also searched for crusts of oxidation but that's extremely rare. Some of my confusion seems to be explained quite nicely in this Getty Museum article: Chemists use the terms “corrosion” and “corrosion products” to describe the salts and oxides that form during burial or long atmospheric exposure, while mineralogists prefer to call them “mineral alteration products.” Patina, however, is a good term even if it implies artistic enhancement by corrosion, which is not always the case. Patina...connotes not merely a specific color but also a continuous surface layer of measurable thickness.... For convenience and because of its wide acceptance by collectors, we will often employ the term patina; but in purely technical discussions, we will speak as a chemist of corrosion and corrosion products. Often the collectors’ interest in ancient bronzes is quickened by the colored corrosion products or patina of their surfaces. The term patina...was used originally to describe the green, blue and red corrosion products of copper and bronze, but by extension is now used to describe any surface on wood, ivory, or marble or other materials resulting from age and exposure. With a mirror or a black sword, there is an “as cast” condition, a finished (polished) condition, a patinated condition, and the condition after use. In fact, mirrors that were in use underwent constant repolishing.
Does anyone actual know what this phrase means as my author uses it in so many of his catalog entries?
Thank you in advance!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors - The catalog entries.
CONTEXT: Mirror of yellow copper or brass & ivory. CONSERVATION. Disque: patine bistrée avec des ***croûtes d'oxydation***. La tige ou soie manque. Pour remonter la pièce, on a rapporté, de nos jours, une tige de cuivre. -- Manche: jauni et maculé de bitume. La matière est éclatée et fendue par endroits.
IN THE SINGULAR: CONSERVATION. Disque intact, mais couvert d'une ***croûte d'oxydation***. -- Manche légèrement fendillé.
ATTEMPT: PRESERVATION. Disk: greyish-brown/bister-colored patina with ***oxidation crusts/layers?**. The tang or stem is missing. To reassemble the piece, a copper tang was recently added. -- Handle: yellowed and stained with bitumen. The material/fabric is ruptured?/pitted? and cracked/split in some places.
ISSUE: Unsure if this is the correct term as, in Googling, I seem to only find oxidation crusts in geological contexts. I also searched for crusts of oxidation but that's extremely rare. Some of my confusion seems to be explained quite nicely in this Getty Museum article: Chemists use the terms “corrosion” and “corrosion products” to describe the salts and oxides that form during burial or long atmospheric exposure, while mineralogists prefer to call them “mineral alteration products.” Patina, however, is a good term even if it implies artistic enhancement by corrosion, which is not always the case. Patina...connotes not merely a specific color but also a continuous surface layer of measurable thickness.... For convenience and because of its wide acceptance by collectors, we will often employ the term patina; but in purely technical discussions, we will speak as a chemist of corrosion and corrosion products. Often the collectors’ interest in ancient bronzes is quickened by the colored corrosion products or patina of their surfaces. The term patina...was used originally to describe the green, blue and red corrosion products of copper and bronze, but by extension is now used to describe any surface on wood, ivory, or marble or other materials resulting from age and exposure. With a mirror or a black sword, there is an “as cast” condition, a finished (polished) condition, a patinated condition, and the condition after use. In fact, mirrors that were in use underwent constant repolishing.
Does anyone actual know what this phrase means as my author uses it in so many of his catalog entries?
Thank you in advance!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | layer of oxidation |
B D Finch
|
| 4 +1 | oxidized crust |
philgoddard
|
| 4 | a dark brown patina, with patches of a heavier encrustation of oxidation |
Christopher Crockett
|
References
| scabs of oxidised metal |
José Patrício
|
Change log
Feb 28, 2017 22:38: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "croûte d\\\'oxydation" to "croûte d\'oxydation "
Proposed translations
+1
20 hrs
French term (edited):
croûte d\'oxydation
Selected
layer of oxidation
I don't think that one would use "crust" here and "scab" seems completely wrong. Even the most "scab"-like form of oxidation, rust, wouldn't be described that way and, obviously, this is not rust.
www.catastrophism.com/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query...zoom...... results - Geological and archaeological dating are achieved by the penetration of .... found that a layer of oxidation covered the incisions, suggesting that ...
https://www.cambridge.org/.../evaluating-swords-introduction...
by C Sanft - 2016 - Related articles
11 May 2016 - from the Han structures there was the first part of this archaeological ..... a layer of oxidation with a spotty appearance, which developed on the.
https://sha.org/conservation-facts/faq/handling-artifacts/Ph... used by permission of the Maryland Archaeological Conservation ..... appear unaltered, but may be worn slightly and covered in a thin layer of oxidation.
www.catastrophism.com/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query...zoom...... results - Geological and archaeological dating are achieved by the penetration of .... found that a layer of oxidation covered the incisions, suggesting that ...
https://www.cambridge.org/.../evaluating-swords-introduction...
by C Sanft - 2016 - Related articles
11 May 2016 - from the Han structures there was the first part of this archaeological ..... a layer of oxidation with a spotty appearance, which developed on the.
https://sha.org/conservation-facts/faq/handling-artifacts/Ph... used by permission of the Maryland Archaeological Conservation ..... appear unaltered, but may be worn slightly and covered in a thin layer of oxidation.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: Yes, and if it is discontinuous, one could use, for example, 'patches of...'
17 mins
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Thanks Tony.
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| neutral |
Charles Davis
: I'm doubtful about this, because a layer of oxidation describes a patina, which is a very different matter. I think "croûte" implies an incrustation or accretion.
25 mins
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Would the oxidation of copper or brass produce "an incrustation or accretion"?// Given your references in the Discussion, I think you're right about "crust".
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| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Clearly, we're dealing with both a heavy ("normal") patina and ["avec"] something much thicker --and, apparently, rougher and less uniformly spread. Technically, it's *all* the result of oxidation, but some oxidations are more equal than others.
18 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you all. I've been delaying selecting the answer because I think both oxidized crust and layer of oxidation are both solid answers and correct."
+1
1 day 15 hrs
philgoddard
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
52
French term (edited):
croûte d\'oxydation
oxidized crust
Or crust of oxidation.
See the discussion entries. The author has chosen a specific word that makes perfect sense and has an exact English equivalent, and I feel we should respect that.
See the discussion entries. The author has chosen a specific word that makes perfect sense and has an exact English equivalent, and I feel we should respect that.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: I'll agree, but pique a knit: technically (what else matters, style?), the crust is not oxidized --it's the result of the oxidation of the copper in the bronze. "Crust of oxidized bronze" works.
23 hrs
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1 day 15 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
131
French term (edited):
croûte d\'oxydation
a dark brown patina, with patches of a heavier encrustation of oxidation
"The disk is intact, with a dark brown patina, and patches of a heavier encrustation of oxidation."
Clearly, we're dealing with both a heavy patina --of the more or less smooth sort which might be expected on a 3,000 year old bronze object-- as well as ["avec"] patches of a much thicker encrustation --apparently much rougher and less uniformly spread across the surface.
Technically, it's *all* the result of oxidation, the variation perhaps due to inconsistencies and impurities inherent in the copper/bronze(?).
(Though "bistre/bister" does show up in the Definitive OED, I've never seen the word used in English and would prefer to just go with "dark brown" here.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-02-27 16:24:02 GMT)
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Thinking about it a bit further, it seems to me that the kind of serious corrosion/encrustation (in addition to the relatively minor patina caused by oxidation over time) we might be looking at here is more common in copper objects than bronze ones --though one of the good books which Phil found might be more enlightening than my own skimpy knowledge.
If my speculation is indeed true (weirder stuff has happened), then the variation in the results of oxidation across the surface of the disk might be attributed to slight variations in the consistency of the percentages of the various metals used (copper, tin, zinc) --variations which were due to, for instance, the lack of iron for a proper crucible to melt (and mix) the composite metals in, ultimately resulting in a lack of homogeneity in the molten bronze.
E.g., I'm assuming that only stone crucibles were used, which might not have been able to have been brought to as high a temperature in the kiln as iron ones were (later) able to take.
But, I'm "just speculating about a hypothesis," blissfully ignorant of any actual knowledge of the subject.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-02-27 16:34:28 GMT)
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Obviously, the "encrustation" is the *result* of oxidation, rather than being made up of oxidation.
"...with patches of a heavier encrustation of oxidized elements" is much more better.
Sorry for the confusion.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days14 hrs (2017-02-28 13:03:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Turns out that the good links to technical books were courtesy of Charles, not Phil. Sorry, Charles.
Clearly, we're dealing with both a heavy patina --of the more or less smooth sort which might be expected on a 3,000 year old bronze object-- as well as ["avec"] patches of a much thicker encrustation --apparently much rougher and less uniformly spread across the surface.
Technically, it's *all* the result of oxidation, the variation perhaps due to inconsistencies and impurities inherent in the copper/bronze(?).
(Though "bistre/bister" does show up in the Definitive OED, I've never seen the word used in English and would prefer to just go with "dark brown" here.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-02-27 16:24:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Thinking about it a bit further, it seems to me that the kind of serious corrosion/encrustation (in addition to the relatively minor patina caused by oxidation over time) we might be looking at here is more common in copper objects than bronze ones --though one of the good books which Phil found might be more enlightening than my own skimpy knowledge.
If my speculation is indeed true (weirder stuff has happened), then the variation in the results of oxidation across the surface of the disk might be attributed to slight variations in the consistency of the percentages of the various metals used (copper, tin, zinc) --variations which were due to, for instance, the lack of iron for a proper crucible to melt (and mix) the composite metals in, ultimately resulting in a lack of homogeneity in the molten bronze.
E.g., I'm assuming that only stone crucibles were used, which might not have been able to have been brought to as high a temperature in the kiln as iron ones were (later) able to take.
But, I'm "just speculating about a hypothesis," blissfully ignorant of any actual knowledge of the subject.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-02-27 16:34:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Obviously, the "encrustation" is the *result* of oxidation, rather than being made up of oxidation.
"...with patches of a heavier encrustation of oxidized elements" is much more better.
Sorry for the confusion.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days14 hrs (2017-02-28 13:03:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Turns out that the good links to technical books were courtesy of Charles, not Phil. Sorry, Charles.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: Agreed, but having two words ending in -ation is a bit awkward. // So by your reasoning, "creation of an encrustation of oxidation" would be even better :-)
15 mins
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An "encrustation of oxidation" is a Dog that Won't Hunt. My "encrustation of oxidized elements" was an attempt to placate your Assonance Phobia--which has the added advantage of eliminating the nonsense of my"encrustation of oxidation." The attempt failed
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Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
scabs of oxidised metal
scabs of oxidised metal - https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/croûtes-doxydation.3...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| neutral |
Cornelius Gillen
: oxidised crust
9 hrs
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OK
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| disagree |
Tony M
: I don't think 'scab' is at all natural in EN used like this.
19 hrs
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It depends, scab like. f. e. Sheep scab, a skin disease of sheep caused by the mite Psoroptes ovis
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| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: While I suppose that what is meant by "scabs" is clear enough, that word is never applied in a technical situation like this and smacks of an informality which is not appropriate in this formal, academic context.
1 day 14 hrs
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Discussion
https://books.google.es/books?id=778GIuQQU0IC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA...
As the authorities decided not to clean the statue, the surface remains crusted with a thick coating of oxy-chloride and carbonate of copper"
This statue is either bronze or copper.
"Whilst the bronze was in good condition, metallic, and only slightly coated with a green crust [...]
Antique metals containing copper, however, are often rather more difficult to etch [...] These difficulties are best overcome by removing as much as possible of the oxidised crust from the surfaces of the specimen not required to be etched, or by covering them with a layer of wax."
Ancient Egyptian Metallurgy
https://archive.org/stream/ancientegyptianm00garl/ancientegy...
This is on a Roman lead plaque:
"The piece offered here has a light brown patina with a thin oxidized crust over the outer surface"
http://www.trocadero.com/stores/apoloniaancientart/catalog/q...
I have spent three days studying this and I've learned all the jargon about corrosion products/layers/films, even corrosion crusts, but none of them give definitions. I've examined the unfortunately only black&white plates to no avail. The ones with "croûte d'oxydation" seem to look less "corroded" than the ones which look like they have lots of blotches. Perhaps "an oxidation layer," or can you have lots of oxidation layers? Perhaps the crucial distinction is the word "croûte"?
I would have thought "oxidized crust" works perfectly well. If the author has chosen that term in French, the translation should reflect it.