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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Disque de miroir scorifié.

English translation:

mirror disc corroded

Added to glossary by angela3thomas
Jun 12, 2017 18:48
6 yrs ago
French term

Disque de miroir scorifié.

French to English Art/Literary Metallurgy / Casting ancient art
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. The whole catalog entry.
44085. ***Disque de miroir entièrement scorifié.*** - Argent. - Haut. environ 0 m. 15 cent., larg. environ 0 m. 16 cent., épaiss. 0 m. 002 mill. - Dahshoûr, fouilles de M. de Morgan, 1894. Tordu et ayant les contours rongés, il est informe. On peut néanmoins rétablir sa hauteur, son diamètre et son épaisseur.
I also found this exact mirror described by another Egyptologist in his own 1925 catalog:
Un miroir argent qui n'est plus qu'un bloc rocheux de chlorure d'argent. Cette pièce, devenue informe, laisse deviner qu'elle était ou circulaire ou elliptique.
ATTEMPT: 44085. Mirror disk entirely slagged/turned to slag?/scorified?. -- Silver. -- Height about 15 cm, width about 16 cm, thickness 2 mm. -- Dahshur, de Morgan excavations, 1894. Twisted with worn down contours, it is shapeless. Nevertheless its height, diameter, and thickness can be re-established.
Definition of scorify = to remove (impurities) from metals by forming scoria ANOTHER To reduce an ore to scoria.
ISSUE: I don't know what to make of "scorifié".
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 mirror disc corroded
3 mirror disk entirely reduced to scoria

Discussion

Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
corroded I don't see anything technically wrong with 'completely corroded'; corrosion is general and has been used to describe silver coins that are unrecognizable as a result of chemically induced changes in color, luster and especially texture.
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
I think we know enough to be able to say there's a lot of crud on the mirror disc.
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
To my mind "corrode" doesn't necessarily imply chalky and would cover all sorts of surface mineral or crystalline deposits, whereas "deteriorate" is more general and could apply to wear, for example.
mrrafe Jun 13, 2017:
Charles, exactly, I share your concern about excessive specificity which might inadvertently exclude a meaning intended by the author, but my point is that deteriorated is less specific, and thus safer, than corroded. Deteriorated:degraded = corroded:chalky.
Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
@Charles That's very kind to say... Right, as you said, the scorifié in this location needs to describe the mirror prima facie. A dramatic introduction works. Perhaps the 1925 writer thought it went too far. Well, I will propose it, since I have nothing to lose here, and I like close translations, even if I have to use 'Oxford commas'.
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
And by the way, I seriously considered proposing "reduced to scoria" as a translation, but didn't quite have the courage.
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
@herbalchemist Thanks to you! And no problem; even with shiny, untarnished French (which mine is not), it's an easy mistake to make :)
Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
re: refined Good points. I ran in the wrong direction. The mirror is clearly not in good shape. Perhaps 'entièrement scorifié' is the dramatic 'reduced to scoria', so worse than the original ore from whence it came.
Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
@Charles Thanks! My French is completely corroded. Hope I didn't ruin the discussion.
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
(Excuse me, Tony) Yes, you read it wrong: "n'est plus qu'un bloc rocheux": "is no longer anything more than", "is now just".
Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
@Tony Did I read it wrong? 'A silver mirror that is no longer an ore of silver chloride.'
Tony M Jun 13, 2017:
@ H/C That wouldn't make sense here in the light of the second, later description:

"Un miroir argent qui n'est plus qu'un bloc rocheux de chlorure d'argent."

So it obviously started out as silver but has reverted to AgCl
Charles Davis Jun 13, 2017:
refined That is where you end up if you assume that "scorifié" means what it says. But there are surely problems with this reading. First, this occurs in the physical description of the mirror, and ought to refer to the state of the object rather than the production method. Second, is it in principle possible to tell, without chemical analysis, that the silver in the disc was scorified, and to what extent? Third, would it not be a tautology, in the sense that the silver used to create a mirror disc like this would necessarily have been scorified, so why mention it? Fourth, the second description emphasises severe deterioration of the metal and it would be very surprising if this were not mentioned at all in the first description.
Herbmione Granger Jun 13, 2017:
completely refined Thanks to Angela's abundance of context, we know that the mirror was once an ore with silver chloride impurities. This could be fairly easy to scorify, maybe by converting the silver cloride to silver: https://www.finishing.com/195/29.shtml . I agree that the phrase does not sound right (entirely scorified mirror disk). Maybe work in the silver, like 'mirror disk, created entirely by scorification from silver ore'. I prefer the 1925 description.
mrrafe Jun 13, 2017:
AgCl formation Agree, scorify is a production method. With age, silver can react with sulfur in air (to tarnish), but it doesn't react with oxygen (to oxidize). It becomes silver chloride through long exposure to dissolved salt (NaCl), such as seawater, but I don't know any special name for that (sea change? - Shakespeare, Tempest). And the authors have given it no thought as far as one can tell from the original texts, so it might be inappropriate to insert a technical term anyway. Maybe scorifie meant simply deteriorated, as far as Author 1 was concerned. (But deteriorated or corroded may not be appropriately descriptive, because if it's AgCl, it's probably crystallized.) Maybe it isn't even silver chloride as stated by Author 2, although that seems like an unlikely mistake. Was this item in the ocean?
philgoddard Jun 12, 2017:
Scorification appears to be a deliberately introduced process, so it doesn't seem appropriate here. What do you call age-induced deterioration of silver to form silver chloride?

Proposed translations

+2
11 hrs
Selected

mirror disc corroded

I share the misgivings expresses by others with respect to "scorify"; like "scorifier" in French, it denotes a deliberate process of purification by reduction to scoria or dross, and I don't think it's really suitable here, even though the author has (mis?)used it in French.

Clearly the silver has deteriorated through some chemical process, and the second description, referring to silver chloride, suggests that this is beyond tarnishing. I think "corrode" is perfectly suitable and disagree with mrrafe's suggestion that this verb is not appropriate for conversion to silver chloride, even if crystallisation is involved. The following is from an account of tarnishing of silver by a conservation specialist at the Victoria and Albert Museum:

"Silver chloride is also found as a corrosion product of silver"
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/journals/conservation-journal/i...

"Corrode" is quite a general term that can be applied to any degenerative process in metals by chemical action, and seems to me a safe option here.

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Note added at 12 hrs (2017-06-13 07:37:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the way, I wouldn't find immersion in seawater very surprising. At the British Museum last year there was a wonderful exhibition of objects from the city of Thonis-Heracleion, in the Nile delta, which sank into the sea.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
19 mins
Thanks, Phil
neutral mrrafe : Deterioration? Agnostic because the UK journal is talking about a white layer, whereas I imagined a crystalline rock encrustation based on Author 2, like this: http://www.themineralgallery.com/Tucson2012-66EmbolitePropri...
2 hrs
True re. V&A article, and I agree that it's probably more like that picture, but I think "corroded" will serve nevertheless. The problem for me is that anything more specific makes assumptions that could be wrong.
agree Yolanda Broad
2 days 18 hrs
Thank you, Yolanda :)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks everyone! I think both proposed answers are correct and are a fine fit for my context. Wish I could select both!"
14 hrs
French term (edited): Disque de miroir entièrement scorifié

mirror disk entirely reduced to scoria

From context and discussion:
To scorify = to reduce an ore to scoria
Scorifié = reduced to scoria ?

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Note added at 16 hrs (2017-06-13 11:48:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, 'reduced' is idiomatic, meaning transformed into less valuable material, since oxidation presumably took place to make scoria, leaving behind pure silver with a lower oxidation state.
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