| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Voters for removal of useless reclassification as PRO / non-PRO. Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: Michael Beijer
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Anne-Marie Grant (X) 
Local time: 08:56
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
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is quite subjective. I've seen examples of questions that attracted 6 or 7 answers and furious arguments being considered 'non-pro' by certain members. Also, something that seems very easy to a specialist might be very challenging to a novice translator. In these cases the 'non-pro' vote serves simply to humiliate.
| | | | Cetacea
Ελβετία
Local time: 09:56
Αγγλικά σε Γερμανικά
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
The Misha wrote:
I use it to express my disgust when the Kudoz system is being unscrupulously used as an equivalent of a general purpose dictionary. That's about all we have left for the purpose.
I believe this is the basic purpose it serves. What else is a change to non-PRO saying other than "any fool should either know this, or be able to find it within 7 nanoseconds of opening a search engine or dictionary"?
Of course, we are not allowed to call people fools and that is probably a good thing on balance, but the non-PRO vote can indicate that the question is foolish, if not the actual Asker (and let's be fair, we can all have a wood-trees-blurring moment once in a while).
[Edited at 2009-07-16 18:41 GMT]
I feel the same way as The Misha and Charlie. Let's keep this feature.
| | | | | No plans to remove these features | Jul 16, 2009 |
The pro / non-pro classification was introduced in the early days of KudoZ when users complained about the assignment of KudoZ points to askers of very simple terms such as "I love you".
Non-pro questions are defined as those that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary. Also questions from non-logged-in visitors are by definition non-pro.
The not-for-points questions, an option made available to users who prefer to ask questions without ... See more The pro / non-pro classification was introduced in the early days of KudoZ when users complained about the assignment of KudoZ points to askers of very simple terms such as "I love you".
Non-pro questions are defined as those that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary. Also questions from non-logged-in visitors are by definition non-pro.
The not-for-points questions, an option made available to users who prefer to ask questions without points involved.
The first feature is a key component of KudoZ while the second is a valid option offered to the askers. There are no plans to remove any of them.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
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I think a clear distinction should exist between questions (and points) anybody could answer with the help of grandfather's pocket dictionary and those requiring (or at least in theory) a professional translator.
The reclassification of a Pro question to non-Pro makes total sense to me, as askers sometimes don't even have the knowledge to correctly judge which questions are not really Pro at all...
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Stéphanie Soudais (X)
Γαλλία
Local time: 09:56
Αγγλικά σε Γαλλικά
Enrique wrote:
The pro / non-pro classification was introduced in the early days of KudoZ when users complained about the assignment of KudoZ points to askers of very simple terms such as "I love you".
I agree, very simple questions shouldn't be treated as other, "pro" questions.
Stéphanie
| | | | Lingua 5B
Βοσνία και Ερζεγοβίνη
Local time: 09:56
Μέλος από 2009
Αγγλικά σε Κροατικά
+ ...
Perhaps some people may regard stylistic concerns related to simple phrases as non-pro games, but that's the last thing they are. Quite the contrary, those stylistic concerns and differentiations of what we would see as simple words/phrases distinguish pro translation world from amateurs.
I support the views of the topic starter.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 21:11 GMT]
| | | | Lingua 5B
Βοσνία και Ερζεγοβίνη
Local time: 09:56
Μέλος από 2009
Αγγλικά σε Κροατικά
+ ...
| Yes, Anne-Marie | Jul 16, 2009 |
Anne-Marie Grant wrote:
is quite subjective. I've seen examples of questions that attracted 6 or 7 answers and furious arguments being considered 'non-pro' by certain members. Also, something that seems very easy to a specialist might be very challenging to a novice translator. In these cases the 'non-pro' vote serves simply to humiliate.
Precisely. While a poetry translator will think up 10 different versions of the phrase " I love you" in their native language contextually discussing the style and tone for three days, an engineer translator may report it as non-pro immediately. And vice versa ( for example, regarding something that may seem like a "simple" technical term, but an engineer knows well enough how tricky things can get when it comes to technical terminology).
Very subjective indeed.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 21:07 GMT]
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Μεξικό
Local time: 02:56
Μέλος από 2006
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
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Henry Hinds wrote:
I also vote for removal of PRO / non-PRO. I would also vote for removal of "not for points" questions. They are both useless options.
Me too.
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David Russi
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 01:56
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
+ ...
Also "not for points", both are useless.
This classification would make some sense if you could use it to screen out some irrelevant results in an advanced search, but since the search funcionality is very limited anyway, that would probably be a lot to ask for.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 22:59 GMT]
| | | | David Russi
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 01:56
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
+ ...
| Not cut and dry | Jul 16, 2009 |
Enrique wrote:
The pro / non-pro classification was introduced in the early days of KudoZ when users complained about the assignment of KudoZ points to askers of very simple terms such as "I love you".
Yes, but often a simple phrase can be quite difficult to translate, and the decision as to what is and isn't pro is not that cut and dry.
The not-for-points questions, an option made available to users who prefer to ask questions without points involved.
Why would they "prefer" that option? Thay are simply deciding they do not want to receive suggestions from lots of quelified people who choose not to answer questions that do not assign points.
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Χιλή
Local time: 05:56
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
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Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I think a clear distinction should exist between questions (and points) anybody could answer with the help of grandfather's pocket dictionary and those requiring (or at least in theory) a professional translator.
I agree with The Misha, Charlie, Tomás and others who've voted in favour of keeping this feature available.
Regards
Andrea
[Edited at 2009-07-16 23:05 GMT]
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Χιλή
Local time: 05:56
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
+ ...
David Russi wrote:
Why would they "prefer" that option? Thay are simply deciding they do not want to receive suggestions from lots of quelified people who choose not to answer questions that do not assign points.
They might also be deciding that they do not want to receive suggestions from lots of UNqualified people who rush to take a guess at every question under the sun in the hopes of getting lucky enough to score some points, David.
Just an idea.
Andrea
[Edited at 2009-07-16 23:10 GMT]
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Michael Beijer
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 08:56
Μέλος
Ολλανδικά σε Αγγλικά
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | JUST CHOOSE ONE OPTION AT RANDOM AND PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST | Jul 16, 2009 |
I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.
I am a professional translator and every single question I ask here is a PRO question, and I am getting sick and tired of people suggesting that my questions are in fact non professional. Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never... See more I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.
I am a professional translator and every single question I ask here is a PRO question, and I am getting sick and tired of people suggesting that my questions are in fact non professional. Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never the other way around) WHILE NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEMSELVES.
It is very easy to judge when you carefully refrain from ever making any definite positive statements about anything.
Also, and as a few people here have remarked or hinted at, it is actually being used to laugh at or look down on people's questions rather than for what it is was supposedly designed for.
The powers that be will of course not remove the feature, or the (equally useless) 'not for points' one; so... I would suggest we all just CHOOSE ONE OPTION AT RANDOM AND PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 23:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | David Russi
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 01:56
Αγγλικά σε Ισπανικά
+ ...
| Even wrong/unqualified answers are worthwhile | Jul 17, 2009 |
ariffo wrote:
They might also be deciding that they do not want to receive suggestions from lots of UNqualified people who rush to take a guess at every question under the sun in the hopes of getting lucky enough to score some points, David.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 23:10 GMT]
Maybe... personally, I would rather screen out some incorrect, irrelevant, unqualified, and just plain wrong answers than miss out on possibly the best suggestion out there that wil not come because I picked "not for points".
But that's just me, I guess...
| | | | | Michael, reclassification should not be a personal issue | Jul 17, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.
I argue that there is a difference. You are lucky, if you have not seen many questions that are of the "how do you say I love you in X language", or "I want to get a tattoo in Chinese characters, what is LOVE in Chinese?" or "how do you write my name using Japanese letters?". These questions coming from non-logged in visitors almost all the time. I hope you agree that these are non-PRO questions.
In my experience, the automatic classification along with the community's common sense works pretty well in differentiating PRO and non-PRO type questions. I agree that differences may exist between language pairs in terms of the frequency of non-PRO and PRO questions. There may be differences in terms of how the community in the given pair handles the classification issue. There may be pairs where people are easy going, do not modify much, but in other pairs people may be more active. I also agree that many questions are "borderline", and the decision could be subjective. I think that's why we have the voting system, which along with the selection criteria for KudoZ-editors and moderators is probably as close as it gets in terms of ensuring objective decisions as much as possible.
I have been using KudoZ for 9 years or so, and I am glad the PRO/non-PRO classification is there, for many reasons, such as that as I have the option to filter out non-PRO questions (see examples above). I still answer non-PRO questions, too, when I have time, but the classification helps me to prioritize, if I only have time to answer a few questions I would rather help site users than non-logged in visitors.
I am a professional translator and every single question I ask here is a PRO question, and I am getting sick and tired of people suggesting that my questions are in fact non professional. Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never the other way around) WHILE NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEMSELVES.
OK, so this is your personal experience, and you seem to have an issue with people reclassifying your own questions. If this is the reason why you suggested abolishing the classification system, I dare to say it may be a bit premature suggestion.
So far you have asked 29 questions over the past 2 years, 6 of them are recorded in the system as non-PRO. Out of the 6 non-PRO questions, 3 were asked in 2007. Two of those 3 were reclassified from PRO to non-PRO by two different people: one of the questions was posted without context, another one was an entire sentence (against the KudoZ-rules, by the way) and you yourself admitted it was a sloppy question. It seems the third one was originally posted as non-PRO.
As to the 3 more recent non-PRO questions, one was reclassified, another one looks like it was posted as non-PRO to begin with, and the third one (the newest) was reclassified based on votes by 3 different people.
What I am trying to say is that this is not too much, really. The number of reclassifications (even if ALL 4 of them were unjustified, which I doubt) shouldn't present a serious source of frustration. Reclassifications are not personal. I don't think people are ganging up on you, if that's what you feel.
All in all, I am surprised that you are "sick and tired", just based on these instances.
Even if all 4 reclassifications caused you frustration, there were supposedly 25 other questions that gave you a more satisfying result, right?
I have a feeling that the more you use the KudoZ system the more problems you will see, and this classification issue will not even show up on your radar screen as a problem...
It is very easy to judge when you carefully refrain from ever making any definite positive statements about anything.
Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never the other way around) WHILE NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEMSELVES.
Please reflect on these two statements again, in light of the actual questions of yours that were reclassified. What I see is that reclassification was done at least once by the person who offered the chosen answer, which contradicts your second statement, and also shows that the person is not a point-grabber (non-PRO points do not show up in the total point count towards directory ranking). Others that voted for non-PRO reclassification also contributed by offering translations either as an answer, or a discussion comment, or as an agree to another answer.
Also, and as a few people here have remarked or hinted at, it is actually being used to laugh at or look down on people's questions rather than for what it is was supposedly designed for.
This, again, may be your own perception, I certainly don't see it that way (but I work in different pairs), but in either case, if anybody makes a comment about your decision for posting the question, or makes any other unprofessional remark, please refer to the KudoZ rules and if there is a violation, report the case to a moderator.
I wish you a more pleasant experience in KudoZ in the future.
Katalin
[Edited at 2009-07-17 05:01 GMT]
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