| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2] | Kudoz answerers posting minuses to others Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: Jessica Noyes
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| Different sorts of bad behaviour | Sep 16, 2009 |
Of course, me and all the others started agreeing with each others' answers, and entering disagrees to this person's to send him to the bottom of the list . The comments were "I agree with you to compensate for the unfair disagree" and the like.
At Veronica:
Both behaviors are bad.
In the first place, a confidence of 5 doesn't automatically mean "my answer is the only good one", so your comment about it being a display of arrogance is uncalled for. Second, you haven't mentioned if that sixth answer was wrong, and from your own recount, it seems that the disagrees were used to punish that sixth person (which would be in the wrong if his reasons were actually lame) and not to judge the quality of that answer. That behavior is just as damaging to the kudoz system because is not based on linguistic grounds.
I'd like to know your opinions about this case:
A couple of years ago, somebody posted a question about the name of an object that was based on the name of a city or a place (I don't really remember). The name of the object is not very common or known, but the name of the city is, so the object is usually mistranslated as the name of the actual city because both words sound similar. Somebody posted the common mistranslation, which immediately had a lot of agrees because it's a familiar word. I knew both words so I posted the correct translation when I saw the question (a few hours after the first answer). I also posted a disagree to the first answer because it was wrong. It was maybe two or three letters different than my answer, but it wasn't a matter of the singular vs. the plural form, it was a different word, and an obscure one at that.
Now, the first answer had a lot of references, all of them about the city NOT the object of the question. Mine didn't have a single reference, I happened to know about the subject so I explained what I knew and probably added a link or something. The first answer kept getting agrees, while my answer didn't get a single one and/or probably got disagrees, I don't remember, and the other answerer took my disagree personally. The thing is that the wrong answer was chosen and entered in the glossaries.
What do you think about that? I think I was right to post an answer and a disagree. But I'd like to read why others would think I was wrong?
| | | | | KudoZ sandbox? | Sep 16, 2009 |
VeronicaMar wrote:
...answering with a confidence of 5 (arrogant in my opinion seeing the others were not really wrong)
The confidence level of one's own answer has nothing to do with the other answers.
methodically added a Disagree to every other answer already there with very lame reasons in some cases
The reasons entered into peer comments must be linguistic. If they are not, you can complain to the Moderator. If the comment is linguistic, but you don't think it is correct, that's another issue, that simply means you are in disagreement.
Of course, me and all the others started agreeing with each others' answers, and entering disagrees to this person's to send him to the bottom of the list  .
Yes, that is the type of behavior that is sometimes referred to as "KudoZ sandbox", "KudoZ kindergarten". It is not "of course".
The comments were "I agree with you to compensate for the unfair disagree" and the like.
Comments must be linguistic. These comments are not only childish, but against the rules as well.
Conclusion: the asker never found it useful,
Yes, and this is the disappointing outcome of the whole sandbox fight.
and the automatic assigning of points and the glossary entry are not reliable in a case like this.
After reading your post, I am not sure what the reliability would have been, even if the 6th answerer never came to the scene...
Is there a way of reporting these type of users?
I saw the links to the moderators but can they ban them or "take measures"?
Any behavior that is against the rules can be reported to Moderators and site staff.
Sorry if this post comes through brutal, but what you described as your little group "revenge" is not professional behavior in my opinion.
Katalin
| | | | | Your answer is still useful | Sep 17, 2009 |
Claudia Alvis wrote:
A couple of years ago, somebody posted a question about the name of an object that was based on the name of a city or a place (I don't really remember). The name of the object is not very common or known, but the name of the city is, so the object is usually mistranslated as the name of the actual city because both words sound similar. Somebody posted the common mistranslation, which immediately had a lot of agrees because it's a familiar word. I knew both words so I posted the correct translation when I saw the question (a few hours after the first answer). I also posted a disagree to the first answer because it was wrong. It was maybe two or three letters different than my answer, but it wasn't a matter of the singular vs. the plural form, it was a different word, and an obscure one at that.
Now, the first answer had a lot of references, all of them about the city NOT the object of the question. Mine didn't have a single reference, I happened to know about the subject so I explained what I knew and probably added a link or something. The first answer kept getting agrees, while my answer didn't get a single one and/or probably got disagrees, I don't remember, and the other answerer took my disagree personally. The thing is that the wrong answer was chosen and entered in the glossaries.
What do you think about that? I think I was right to post an answer and a disagree. But I'd like to read why others would think I was wrong?
To those who know what they're doing, i.e. know both target and source language to a high degree.
I have two reasons to do a term search:
A - may brain has gone blank and I need some input to get it working again
B - I've never come across the term before and need a starting point for research
I therefore do not even consider if an answer has been selected and/or entered in to the glossary. Instead, I just read through all the answers provided and use my own judgement. In case of A, I can easily see which (if any) answer is correct. In case B, I do further research to establish the correct term.
| | | | Birgit Gläser
Γερμανία
Local time: 10:29
Αγγλικά σε Γερμανικά
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| with Claudia | Sep 17, 2009 |
I think that disagrees are a useful tool to separate the wheat from the chaff. When someone posts a disagree to an answer, whoever is looking up the entry will have a closer look to see why it is considered wrong. And it often happens, that the person who knows something is wrong can give a/the correct answer, so why should he not post it?
Just look up tonights "Strumpfhöschen" - which are apparently some kind of short tights. Someone posted "pop socks" and received two neutrals p... See more I think that disagrees are a useful tool to separate the wheat from the chaff. When someone posts a disagree to an answer, whoever is looking up the entry will have a closer look to see why it is considered wrong. And it often happens, that the person who knows something is wrong can give a/the correct answer, so why should he not post it?
Just look up tonights "Strumpfhöschen" - which are apparently some kind of short tights. Someone posted "pop socks" and received two neutrals pointing out that this refers to socks/knee-highs and not tights. When looking at the overview all one could see was "tightlets" (not perfect, but closer) and "pop socks" with equal points while the correct answer was still in the discussion section. And this is the way junk ends up in the glossary.
We all come from different backgrounds (as in experience) and nobody is perfect. The overall aim is to help others. And if an answer is wrong, that should be pointed out to the current and future benefit of all users. Nothing personal about it - or let's say there shouldn't be. ▲ Collapse
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Susan Welsh 
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 04:29
Ρωσικά σε Αγγλικά
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| with Claudia. Truth. | Sep 18, 2009 |
It's not about points, competition, or people's feelings. It's about correct -- even beautiful -- translation. If something is just plain incorrect, someone who knows that should "disagree," and give a reason, even if it's only that "that is not English ... or German ... or Chinese ... or whatever." That's how people learn. "Neutral" to me implies that the answer might be okay but you don't particularly like it for one reason or another.
As to beauty, eloquence, imaginativeness --that's an... See more It's not about points, competition, or people's feelings. It's about correct -- even beautiful -- translation. If something is just plain incorrect, someone who knows that should "disagree," and give a reason, even if it's only that "that is not English ... or German ... or Chinese ... or whatever." That's how people learn. "Neutral" to me implies that the answer might be okay but you don't particularly like it for one reason or another.
As to beauty, eloquence, imaginativeness --that's another matter. "Disagree" is not appropriate then, obviously.
Susan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 09:29
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
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Jessica Noyes wrote:
Perhaps this topic has been discussed. If so, I would appreciate the link.
I am seeing more and more people who are answering kudoz questions posting minuses to other answers. Since, in a small way, Kudoz is like a contest with judges, this practices means that some of the competitors also ask as judges -- and this is against traditional rules of fairness.
I think that answerers who disagree with the replies of others, and think they have good reasons for doing so should either: a) post their reasoning in the discussion box as a discussion; b) post it as a neutral and explain why (still not lowering their 'competitor's' score,) or c) explain why they disagree in the box that holds their own reply, added as a later comment.
*Not post a minus* and lower the other person's score.
There is an objective element to KudoZ. I give the following as an example:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/medical_general/3447610.html
The answer that attracted three "disagrees" is quite disastrously wrong and potentially dangerous. I really don't think those who disagreed were wrong to say so, regardless of whether or not any of us had made suggestions ourselves. I was certainly not disagreeing with one answer in order to obtain a higher "score" for mine.
In other words, it is fair sometimes to assume that people disagree with others' suggestions independently of any other participation in the "contest" (and, really, I don't think it is a contest).
| | | | | Completely agree - Wrong is wrong | Sep 18, 2009 |
Claudia Alvis wrote:
That would be even more detrimental to the system. I don't understand why some people take disagrees as personal attacks, that seems infantile to me. If an answer is wrong, why should it be neutral? Is it to spare somebody's feelings? It's just misleading. In the meantime, that wrong answer could be selected and ADDED to the glossary. And that happens all the time. People who post a different answer have more authority to post a disagree.
I completely agree with this. A wrong answer is a wrong answer, no matter how much we avoid the issue. If an answerer feels that one or many answers in the question are wrong, the right exists to express it. Of course, I agree that an explanation of the Disagree is a good idea to avoid strange conspiracy thoughts!
| | | | Kathryn Litherland
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 04:29
Μέλος από 2007
Ισπανικά σε Αγγλικά
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| blind leading the blind | Sep 18, 2009 |
Claudia Alvis wrote:
A couple of years ago, somebody posted a question about the name of an object that was based on the name of a city or a place (I don't really remember)....Somebody posted the common mistranslation, which immediately had a lot of agrees because it's a familiar word. I knew both words so I posted the correct translation when I saw the question (a few hours after the first answer). I also posted a disagree to the first answer because it was wrong. ... The first answer kept getting agrees, while my answer didn't get a single one and/or probably got disagrees, I don't remember, and the other answerer took my disagree personally. The thing is that the wrong answer was chosen and entered in the glossaries.
I think that's an excellent example of the sort of situation where it's entirely reasonable to post your own answer and a "disagree" to someone else.
Of all the obnoxious stuff that goes on in Kudoz, this seems like something where there's tremendous potential for abuse. Yet in practice I haven't seen anyone doing this simply to get an unfair advantage in the points race. And there does exist a legitimate reason to employ this tactic--when "wrong" answers are getting equally "wrong" agrees.
If an answer is blatantly wrong but has no agrees, and I've also provided an answer, I may post a "neutral" or simply address why I think my answer is better in my own answer. But if it's getting a pile of agrees from people who don't know what they're talking about, I feel like a stronger action is warranted.
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| Correcting wrongly chosen Kudoz answers | Sep 18, 2009 |
I agree with Claudia and also follow Madeleine's method when term-seraching (or coming across Kudoz answers on Google). Obviously, if it can be proved beyond doubt that the wrong answer was chosen I think the points should be removed and more importantly the correct answer pointed out.
The same goes for giving disagrees where due, but since the Kudoz are used to discuss ambiguities etc. the disagrees should obviously not be accompanied by opinions but solid proof.
I think the abuser... See more I agree with Claudia and also follow Madeleine's method when term-seraching (or coming across Kudoz answers on Google). Obviously, if it can be proved beyond doubt that the wrong answer was chosen I think the points should be removed and more importantly the correct answer pointed out.
The same goes for giving disagrees where due, but since the Kudoz are used to discuss ambiguities etc. the disagrees should obviously not be accompanied by opinions but solid proof.
I think the abusers are a minority, though there do appear to be one or two who rely on back-slappers to give them agrees with no explanation.
I get irritated by seeing sìmple questions filling up the Kudoz (and the glossaries and term-searches) sometimes too. The Kudoz system should not be used because you haven't found a good dictionary/glossary/search method, or because you're afraid to ask the client about anything unclear in the source text.
quote]Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
Claudia Alvis wrote:
A couple of years ago, somebody posted a question about the name of an object that was based on the name of a city or a place (I don't really remember). The name of the object is not very common or known, but the name of the city is, so the object is usually mistranslated as the name of the actual city because both words sound similar. Somebody posted the common mistranslation, which immediately had a lot of agrees because it's a familiar word. I knew both words so I posted the correct translation when I saw the question (a few hours after the first answer). I also posted a disagree to the first answer because it was wrong. It was maybe two or three letters different than my answer, but it wasn't a matter of the singular vs. the plural form, it was a different word, and an obscure one at that.
Now, the first answer had a lot of references, all of them about the city NOT the object of the question. Mine didn't have a single reference, I happened to know about the subject so I explained what I knew and probably added a link or something. The first answer kept getting agrees, while my answer didn't get a single one and/or probably got disagrees, I don't remember, and the other answerer took my disagree personally. The thing is that the wrong answer was chosen and entered in the glossaries.
What do you think about that? I think I was right to post an answer and a disagree. But I'd like to read why others would think I was wrong?
To those who know what they're doing, i.e. know both target and source language to a high degree.
I have two reasons to do a term search:
A - may brain has gone blank and I need some input to get it working again
B - I've never come across the term before and need a starting point for research
I therefore do not even consider if an answer has been selected and/or entered in to the glossary. Instead, I just read through all the answers provided and use my own judgement. In case of A, I can easily see which (if any) answer is correct. In case B, I do further research to establish the correct term. [/quote] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | 2 suggestions for Kudoz | Sep 18, 2009 |
As I've said, I think it should be possible to correct the Kudoz if it can be solidly proven that the wrong answer was chosen.
Another failing of the Kudoz is that they reward speed as opposed to accuracy. This means that people hastily reply with a bunch of links that they haven't properly researched or commented. A solution to this may be to have a stand-off period of 15 minutes before the question can be answered, though this would lead to a flood of answers! To get around this, I mysel... See more As I've said, I think it should be possible to correct the Kudoz if it can be solidly proven that the wrong answer was chosen.
Another failing of the Kudoz is that they reward speed as opposed to accuracy. This means that people hastily reply with a bunch of links that they haven't properly researched or commented. A solution to this may be to have a stand-off period of 15 minutes before the question can be answered, though this would lead to a flood of answers! To get around this, I myself sometimes post an answer and then add my comments later in good time.
[Editado a las 2009-09-18 17:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | disagrees... | Sep 22, 2009 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
...that is the type of behavior that is sometimes referred to as "KudoZ sandbox", "KudoZ kindergarten"....
Katalin
I'm not proud of my behavior (or the group's) in that question, but the answerer that used the disagrees to get to the top was openly and disrespectfully misusing the mechanism and "looking for it". I guess that's why we reacted.
And if we had reported the moderators, what could they have done? Ban the answerer? Remove the disagrees?
Claudia gave an example of a question where the Disagree was well used, but since the other answerer was faster than her in giving a wrong answer, he went to the top of the list. It seems as if the asker never read the full answers, it's as if he only read the list and picked the first.
Sadly, all this comes up because some users are more interested in the points than in learning from the discussion , and some askers are using it more like a dictionary than a discussion.
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