| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3] | Another slant on Pro/Non-Pro questions Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: Sheila Wilson
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Alison Sabedoria (X) 
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
I was not particularly referring to out-of-context "one word" questions, which are obviously nonsensical, but to questions where a word or phrase occurs without a sentence structure around it, and where calls for more context simply cannot be met.
In many respects I agree with you. It is fundamentally the translator's responsibility to gather as much context information as possible beforehand. But it's not always that simple. Even when a list is presented with a number of items, an... See more I was not particularly referring to out-of-context "one word" questions, which are obviously nonsensical, but to questions where a word or phrase occurs without a sentence structure around it, and where calls for more context simply cannot be met.
In many respects I agree with you. It is fundamentally the translator's responsibility to gather as much context information as possible beforehand. But it's not always that simple. Even when a list is presented with a number of items, and the purpose of the document is clear, a concise "note" style, clear to its author, may leave the reader baffled ("Walk-In detailed" being a good recent English to French example). Getting back to the original author is usually the best bet, but the client is frequently not the author of the text, and in historical documents asking the author is not an option.
I try to help where I can, not for points, but in the hope that someone will be there to do the same for me. =)
[Edited at 2010-01-04 18:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-01-04 18:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Erik Freitag
Γερμανία
Local time: 10:45
Μέλος από 2006
Ολλανδικά σε Γερμανικά
+ ...
| context isn't just "a sentence structure around" | Jan 4, 2010 |
Wordeffect wrote:
I was ferring to [...] questions where a word or phrase occurs without a sentence structure around it, and where calls for more context simply cannot be met.
[Edited at 2010-01-04 18:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-01-04 18:29 GMT] [/quote]
That's the important point I was trying to make: Context is not necessarily (only) "a sentence structure around" - calls for more context usually can be met, unless the translator hasn't been given anything to translate but the term in question.
I know where you're coming from though, and I agree.
Edit: I didn't realize I was basically just repeating what mediamatrix said in an earlier post - sorry!
[Bearbeitet am 2010-01-04 21:07 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Ισπανία
Local time: 09:45
Μέλος από 2007
Αγγλικά
+ ...
ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | What a difference that makes! | Jan 4, 2010 |
mediamatrix wrote:
***********
Question: quolly
Fields: Law/Patents - Other
Context: It's in a list - (sorry but) no context available.
***********
can become, when the asker is pressed for context:
***********
Question: quolly
Fields: Tech/Enginnering - Space/Aeronautics - Ion engine design
Context: It's in a list of tools used in the assembly of spacecraft engines, mentioned in the patent for a revolutionary ion engine.
The rest of the text seems to be well-written by a native English-speaker (from a well-known manufacturing company in the UK), so I don't think it's an error in the source text.
***********
These are just the type of clues to meaning that some askers are so reluctant to share with us. This example should be read by every asker before they are allowed to ask their first question.
| | | | Paul Cohen
Γροιλανδία
Local time: 07:45
Γερμανικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
| A tutorial for all beginners and chronic offenders | Jan 5, 2010 |
mediamatrix wrote:
***********
Question: quolly
Fields: Law/Patents - Other
Context: It's in a list - (sorry but) no context available.
***********
can become, when the asker is pressed for context:
***********
Question: quolly
Fields: Tech/Engineering - Space/Aeronautics - Ion engine design
Context: It's in a list of tools used in the assembly of spacecraft engines, mentioned in the patent for a revolutionary ion engine.
The rest of the text seems to be well-written by a native English-speaker (from a well-known manufacturing company in the UK), so I don't think it's an error in the source text.
***********
Excellent, mediamatrix! I also agree with efreitag that a lack of context is the asker's fault. It would certainly make sense to have examples like these as part of an extensive online tutorial for beginners and chronic offenders in the "low/no context" category.
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Alison Sabedoria (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
| Yes Mediamatrix, Sheila, Paul! | Jan 5, 2010 |
I wholeheartedly agree! Such a well-expressed example is worth putting at the top of the "Ask a question" form, as I'm not sure the folks who most need an online tutorial / article would even bother to look.
But at least quolly, although obscure, is precise. We will always be faced with the occasional resolutely ambiguous term, like a cryptic crossword clue. I for one enjoy pondering their unfathomable mysteries, and (more seriously) the consequences of mis-translation.
... See more I wholeheartedly agree! Such a well-expressed example is worth putting at the top of the "Ask a question" form, as I'm not sure the folks who most need an online tutorial / article would even bother to look.
But at least quolly, although obscure, is precise. We will always be faced with the occasional resolutely ambiguous term, like a cryptic crossword clue. I for one enjoy pondering their unfathomable mysteries, and (more seriously) the consequences of mis-translation.
I had one yesterday in an isolated cell of web-page coding (I'm working directly "behind the scenes" on a site). The word was just "pâtes", to refer to another unspecified text box. Only the French site author can tell me whether it means doughs, pastries, pasta, pastes.... =) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | In this case "no context" means "no context" | Jan 22, 2010 |
I have a list of questions and answer to translate. They are different one from the other. How can I give more context?
Keep in touch,
Enrico
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 06:45
Ισπανικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
| For starters... | Jan 22, 2010 |
enricop wrote:
I have a list of questions and answer to translate. They are different one from the other. How can I give more context?
Keep in touch,
Enrico
Why not tell us who is asking the questions and who is answering them? (presumably not my nephew who plays tiddly-winks, but not necessarily a world-reknowned soccer player either)
What sport does this guy play?
Where are these Qs/As being published/reported?
Why is this stuff being published/reported?
What were the previous two / next two questions in the list?
Country of origin of the source text?
Target readership?
Errr... that'll have to be all for the moment - my dinner's getting cold - and my beer is getting excessively warm
MediaMatrix
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Ισπανία
Local time: 09:45
Μέλος από 2007
Αγγλικά
+ ...
ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | KudoZ has its limits | Jan 22, 2010 |
enricop wrote:
I have a list of questions and answer to translate. They are different one from the other. How can I give more context?
Keep in touch,
Enrico
Even then, Enrico, I believe there would be information that you have that you could share with us. Are these Q+A really as diverse as:
1) what is the origin of life?
2) what is the sum of 2+3?
3) how do you make a Martini?
4) do you like spaghetti?
I'm sure they aren't - there's sure to be a theme. They are aimed at a certain public: professionals or the "man-in-the-street".
Often, the text before and after is an indication, even if it isn't directly related.
@Wordeffect
The word was just "pâtes", to refer to another unspecified text box. Only the French site author can tell me whether it means doughs, pastries, pasta, pastes....
I know exactly what you mean, believe me. I don't know what you did about it, but I suspect a KudoZ question would have been worthless - 120 guesses are really no better than one!
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Erik Freitag
Γερμανία
Local time: 10:45
Μέλος από 2006
Ολλανδικά σε Γερμανικά
+ ...
| possible context | Jan 22, 2010 |
enricop wrote:
I have a list of questions and answer to translate. They are different one from the other. How can I give more context?
Keep in touch,
Enrico
Examples for context in such a case:
- Does the term you investigate occur in a question? Quote the answer (and vice versa)!
- Some of the other questions and answers, even if you don't think they are related.
- Who's your client? An oil company? A plumber? A dentist?
- If the answer to the last question is "an agency": Who's the agency's client? Ask them!
- What's the name of the file you translate? (Surprisingly often, this can give useful hints).
- Quote any column headings etc.
- What's the overall quality of the text? Flawless, full of misspellings, incorrect grammar?
- etc. etc.
Hope this helps,
best regards,
Erik
Edit: typos
[Bearbeitet am 2010-01-22 23:20 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2010-01-23 08:50 GMT]
| | | | Tony M
Γαλλία
Local time: 10:45
Μέλος
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Prompt / guidance for context at time of asking questions. | Jan 23, 2010 |
I've suggested it before in other fora, but I see someone else has suggested it again here, so perhaps it's worth reviving the idea.
I think that part of the 'ask a KudoZ question' procedure should include a 'pester screen' reminding people about what context means, and explaining what sort of things may be useful; it might also include a link to a tutorial on the subject. Just as at present we are forced to preview our questions before submitting them.
Surely this scre... See more I've suggested it before in other fora, but I see someone else has suggested it again here, so perhaps it's worth reviving the idea.
I think that part of the 'ask a KudoZ question' procedure should include a 'pester screen' reminding people about what context means, and explaining what sort of things may be useful; it might also include a link to a tutorial on the subject. Just as at present we are forced to preview our questions before submitting them.
Surely this screen could be arranged to come up each time someone tried to post a question, at least until they had (say) earned a certain number of KudoZ points, or answered a certain number of questions, etc.)
It can't be that difficult to implement, since I see that just recently, exactly this sort of 'think-before-you-act' screen has been added to the KudoZ 'vote pro / non-pro' button.
While we're at it, couldn't someone please write a tutorial on the subject? The need for one seems to be becoming increasingly obvious, and I feel sure it would save a lot of people's time, not to mention frayed tempers. It's very obvious that many askers don't really have a clue what is meant by 'context' — indeed, I'm not too sure I did myself when I first started on KudoZ all those years ago... but I soon cottoned on!
If no-one else is up for it, I'll even volunteer to write one myself... though I feel sure there are others far better qualified than I to do it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 06:45
Ισπανικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
| FAQ in the pipeline | Jan 23, 2010 |
Tony M wrote:
...
I think that part of the 'ask a KudoZ question' procedure should include a 'pester screen' reminding people about what context means, and explaining what sort of things may be useful; it might also include a link to a tutorial on the subject. Just as at present we are forced to preview our questions before submitting them.
...
Shortly after I posted an example of 'bad' and 'better' context Enrique contacted me privately, requesting permission to use that example as the basis for something in the FAQ, so potential answerers could link to that FAQ instead of re-explaining to askers the basic of context every time it needed.
I just had another look at the Kudoz FAQ http://www.proz.com/faq/terminology_term_help/kudoz.html#asking
but can't find anything new about context - let's hope the pipeline is not too long...
That said, I agree that an unavoidable pester screen as suggested by Tony would be more efective. Who ever reads a FAQ when they think they know what they're doing?
MediaMatrix
| | | | | FAQ was posted | Jan 25, 2010 |
mediamatrix wrote:
FAQ in the pipeline
Shortly after I posted an example of 'bad' and 'better' context Enrique contacted me privately, requesting permission to use that example as the basis for something in the FAQ, so potential answerers could link to that FAQ instead of re-explaining to askers the basic of context every time it needed.
The FAQ was finally posted at http://www.proz.com/faq/70204#70204
Thanks again to MediaMatrix for the excellent explanation.
Regards,
Enrique
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