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Leaning on Kudoz for translations that are over your head?
Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: Anne Pinaglia
Timothy Barton
Timothy Barton
Local time: 12:46
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
Happens with Catalan too Mar 19, 2012

The same thing happens with Catalan. Perhaps someone who has lived in Catalonia for a few years but hasn't bothered learning Catalan can wing it, but anybody else is going to get thrown by the past tense (looks like a future tense to people who have learnt other Latin languages), the pronouns, or false friends like "cama" (="leg", not "bed")

 
philgoddard
philgoddard
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Γερμανικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
I have about ten abusers on my filter list... Mar 19, 2012

...and whenever I add someone, I send them a very polite, factual email telling them why.

 
Sean Sheahan
Sean Sheahan  Identity Verified
Γαλλία
Local time: 11:46
Μέλος από 2006
Αγγλικά σε Γαλλικά
+ ...
I do the same as Phil Mar 20, 2012

and think it's in our hands - a good group 'polices' itself or it will become disillusioned, IMHO - i.e we mustn't rely on others to do it. My strategy at the moment is

try to spot
a) the 'winging it' mentioned by Timothy, or
b) more blatant 'line by line' abusers, not to mention the
c) simply impolite askers who feel that any help is naturally 'due' without a simple word of thanks.

I might add that true 'beginning' translators are usually recogn
... See more
and think it's in our hands - a good group 'polices' itself or it will become disillusioned, IMHO - i.e we mustn't rely on others to do it. My strategy at the moment is

try to spot
a) the 'winging it' mentioned by Timothy, or
b) more blatant 'line by line' abusers, not to mention the
c) simply impolite askers who feel that any help is naturally 'due' without a simple word of thanks.

I might add that true 'beginning' translators are usually recognizable by the way they ask and I enjoy helping them, especially if they have already made the effort to bring something to the profession or the KudoZ system.

Free-loaders have always existed, I remember a case of a bogus dentist who treated patients for years without being qualified, or the bogus carpenter who got fired off 7 building sites before finally managing to retain a job - why ? Because he had learned enough from real carpenters to be able to 'wing it'. In reality, he had stolen someone else's job - fact. KudoZ abusers are no different, but the KudoZ tool is so powerful i.e. instantaneous, at a 'safe' distance, and can reach so many people in one click, that it's all too easy for those free-loaders.

That doesn't mean that I don't feel as frustrated as Luis, in fact, if more of us don't take responsibility here I will be re-considering dropping KudoZ, as he has done.

Even if it is an 'old' issue, thanks for raising it again - it may not be old for some and our context is always changing. In the meantime, I'd say cherish your motivation and let's try to not let the abusers reduce the feeling of solidarity we share! Hope to see more reactions to this,

[Edited at 2012-03-20 20:00 GMT]
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carly kelly
carly kelly  Identity Verified
Ιταλία
Local time: 11:46
Ιταλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
IT>EN kudoz is a joke Mar 21, 2012

same handful of askers, same old answerers.

I try to avoid posting questions on kudoz if I can these days, knowing that my question will most likely be answered by one of the 3 or so mother tongue translators who are still active on kudoz (no reflection on them, only that a variety of opinions/suggestions is always better), or someone who doesn't even work in my language pairs.
I rarely have time any more to answer, and tend to stick to the fields I'm comfortable with.


 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 10:46
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
Filtering is the only answer Mar 21, 2012

Paul Stevens wrote:

I can only assume that the powers that be are perfectly happy for its members to (mis)behave in this manner...


Looks like you're right Paul. No reply to my support request.


 
Lucia Leszinsky
Lucia Leszinsky
ΠΡΟΣΩΠΙΚΟ ΙΣΤΟΤΟΠΟΥ
KudoZ is a term help network open to everyone in need of help Mar 21, 2012

Hello all,

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:

Paul Stevens wrote:

I can only assume that the powers that be are perfectly happy for its members to (mis)behave in this manner...


Looks like you're right Paul. No reply to my support request.


As explained at http://www.proz.com/faq/2722#2722 , KudoZ is a community-based terminology network translators and others are welcome to use to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases. Asking questions in KudoZ is open to everyone, as long as site rules are observed when using the platform, http://www.proz.com/rules/ . If you observe any form of rule violation, please report it to moderators or site staff so that appropriate action can be taken.

Also, as philgoddard mentions, if you become convinced that a certain member is not likely to ask questions that are of interest to you, you may opt to "filter" that member's questions (regardless of your notification settings). You can do so here: http://www.proz.com/dashboard/kudoz/?sp_kudoz_mode=flagsandfilters

Finally, I am afraid I do not see any open support request in your name, Lisa. If you would like to submit a support request, you can do so here: http://www.proz.com/support

Kind regards,

Lucia


 
JaneD
JaneD  Identity Verified
Σουηδία
Local time: 11:46
Μέλος από 2009
Σουηδικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
OK - so Kudoz is an area for everyone. What about Certified Pro, then? Mar 22, 2012

Lucia Leszinsky wrote:

As explained at http://www.proz.com/faq/2722#2722 , KudoZ is a community-based terminology network translators and others are welcome to use to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases. Asking questions in KudoZ is open to everyone, as long as site rules are observed when using the platform, http://www.proz.com/rules/ . If you observe any form of rule violation, please report it to moderators or site staff so that appropriate action can be taken.


I think this is fine to an extent in that anyone should be able to ask for help. I also do as Phil does, and just filter people (I've never bothered to send them an email explaining why - they know what they are doing, and me sending an email isn't going to make them stop). I even know who you're talking about without looking - she was the first person I ever filtered!

However - what about people who are ostensibly Certified Pros? There are a number of people who are certified and yet are guilty of either Kudoz and/or rate abuse/poor business practices. I keep wondering - and this thread has reminded me - whether there is any way that Certified Pro status can be removed from people who clearly violate *those* rules...

Surely the fact that a Certified Pro states that they work from umpteen different languages and yet is clearly unable to actually translate even basic terms in most of these languages *must* constitute rule violation?


 
Lucia Leszinsky
Lucia Leszinsky
ΠΡΟΣΩΠΙΚΟ ΙΣΤΟΤΟΠΟΥ
Site abuse should be reported directly to site staff Mar 22, 2012

If you have evidence that a ProZ.com member is violating site rules, http://www.proz.com/rules/ , or that a member of the Certified PRO Network is not acting in line with professional guidelines, http://www.proz.com/professional-guidelines?pg_version=1.1 , report it to site staff via the suppo... See more
If you have evidence that a ProZ.com member is violating site rules, http://www.proz.com/rules/ , or that a member of the Certified PRO Network is not acting in line with professional guidelines, http://www.proz.com/professional-guidelines?pg_version=1.1 , report it to site staff via the support center, http://www.proz.com/support , making sure you include all relevant details and concrete evidence so that appropriate action can be taken.

Lucia
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Claudia Cherici
Claudia Cherici  Identity Verified
Ιταλία
Local time: 11:46
Μέλος από 2010
Αγγλικά σε Ιταλικά
+ ...
everyone Mar 23, 2012

Personally, I think the rules should be changed. I don't think that Kudoz should be open to 'everyone'. I think questions the answers to which can (very) easily be found elsewhere (dictionaries, other net resources) should be banned. This would help our community become a real community of professionals and not of people looking for shortcuts. My two cents...

 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Ιταλία
Local time: 11:46
Ιταλικά σε Αγγλικά
Εις μνήμην
PPTs Mar 23, 2012

Claudia Cherici wrote:

Personally, I think the rules should be changed. I don't think that Kudoz should be open to 'everyone'. I think questions the answers to which can (very) easily be found elsewhere (dictionaries, other net resources) should be banned. This would help our community become a real community of professionals and not of people looking for shortcuts. My two cents...



If I have understood correctly, Proz sets out to be a translation portal and marketplace. The "community" aspect certainly exists, and it's great that it does, but that's not the main point of the exercise.

In any case, policing Kudoz would be expensive, if done systematically, and probably haphazard at best. And at the end of the day, PPTs (Proz-piggybacking translators) hardly represent a threat to working professionals.

As Billy Connolly's granny used to say, they're "mair to be pitied than scolded".


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ουκρανία
Αγγλικά σε Ρωσικά
+ ...
Pro-askers Mar 23, 2012

I don't see a problem here (flagging no work?), but if some educated participants would like to tell 'good' askers from 'bad' ones for their money, I think there're at least three options:

1) have a separate Pro-only askers KudoZ section with vetting and banning counter;
It's quite easy to implement and have some checkbox for 'Pro-askers only'.

2) make questions costy -- say, 500 BrowniZ (or what it makes a dollar) or 2 Pro.
So new users would have enough po
... See more
I don't see a problem here (flagging no work?), but if some educated participants would like to tell 'good' askers from 'bad' ones for their money, I think there're at least three options:

1) have a separate Pro-only askers KudoZ section with vetting and banning counter;
It's quite easy to implement and have some checkbox for 'Pro-askers only'.

2) make questions costy -- say, 500 BrowniZ (or what it makes a dollar) or 2 Pro.
So new users would have enough points to ask a couple of questions and would have to 'earn' to ask more. It should make them choose very wisely what to ask, but it might lead to "permanently new" free accounts, which is also amendable.

3) both))
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XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 10:46
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
'Earn'' the right to ask questions Mar 23, 2012

Draconian, but I like it. Put as much in as you get out, the question is how to stop people from just giving any silly old answer simply for the sake of clocking up the requisite number of answers. Oh, and I also agree with JaneD's point, in fact some of the worse offenders are Certified Pros!

 
Lucia Leszinsky
Lucia Leszinsky
ΠΡΟΣΩΠΙΚΟ ΙΣΤΟΤΟΠΟΥ
Generalizations are not helpful, reporting abuse appropriately is Mar 23, 2012

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:

Oh, and I also agree with JaneD's point, in fact some of the worse offenders are Certified Pros!


More than one member has been removed from the Certified PRO Network for not complying with site rules, and at least one member has been removed for using the KudoZ ask function for purposes other than getting help with the translation of tough terms.

Like explained in my previous post, If you have evidence that a ProZ.com member is violating site rules, http://www.proz.com/rules/ , or that a member of the Certified PRO Network is not acting in line with professional guidelines, http://www.proz.com/professional-guidelines?pg_version=1.1 , report it to site staff via the support center, http://www.proz.com/support , making sure you include all relevant details and concrete evidence so that appropriate action can be taken.

Lucia


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ουκρανία
Αγγλικά σε Ρωσικά
+ ...
comeuppance Mar 23, 2012

Hello Lisa, I don't think it is any 'draconian', but rather 'one-gets-his-just-deserts' approach IMO. If there're no 'bad' questions then there should be no silly old answer simply for the sake of clocking up the requisite number of answers--they will be just ignored and bring no points.

Yes, although I'm not aware (nor care much) of the 'certification' procedure at ProZ, some individuals somewhat puzzled me and made me wonder for a while... How it come that a person got cert
... See more
Hello Lisa, I don't think it is any 'draconian', but rather 'one-gets-his-just-deserts' approach IMO. If there're no 'bad' questions then there should be no silly old answer simply for the sake of clocking up the requisite number of answers--they will be just ignored and bring no points.

Yes, although I'm not aware (nor care much) of the 'certification' procedure at ProZ, some individuals somewhat puzzled me and made me wonder for a while... How it come that a person got certified (met all the requirements) and then somehow turned out to be a laymen or something? I think it's rather superficially perfunctory or there must be some procedural faults, but as far as I don't know their criteria--it's just a wild guess.

Anyway, the official status of such 'troublemakers' has very little to do with their (mis)deeds, IMO.


So, how do you like the idea for payment for questions with BrowniZ (what else they are worth for?!), Pro's or cash?
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XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 10:46
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
Fair comment Lucia Mar 23, 2012

However, a few translators, dissatisfied with the status quo, have withdrawn already and don't take part in KudoZ anymore so I'm not sure how many will be reporting abuse. I, for one, have cancelled my notifications for the time being. I suppose one of the bones of contention is that what some of us feel should be a rule, is currently only a 'guideline':

"(Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources ava
... See more
However, a few translators, dissatisfied with the status quo, have withdrawn already and don't take part in KudoZ anymore so I'm not sure how many will be reporting abuse. I, for one, have cancelled my notifications for the time being. I suppose one of the bones of contention is that what some of us feel should be a rule, is currently only a 'guideline':

"(Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought."
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