| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Kudoz abuse Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: Timothy Barton
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| Off the front page | Dec 30, 2011 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
The site management has repeatedly shown that it is has no interest in addressing the kinds of concerns aired in this and numerous other threads.
Someone, somewhere is following this thread because it has been removed from those shown on the front page. Still, 2-3 years ago it probably would have been locked if not deleted, so we should acknowledge progress.
Bit annoying, though, because now I don't know whether my challenge to post something, anything, positive about asking thousands of questions is being ignored because there is (as I suspect) nothing positive to say about it, or because the thread has slipped off the radar of the KKK* supporters.
*KKK = Ks of Kudos Kwestions
| | | | Robert Forstag 
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| Six of one and half a dozen of the other | Dec 30, 2011 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Someone, somewhere is following this thread because it has been removed from those shown on the front page. Still, 2-3 years ago it probably would have been locked if not deleted, so we should acknowledge progress.
****
A saving grace, perhaps, although a cynic might argue that permitting the airing of such views simply allows the site to have it both ways (i.e., by claiming clean hands in terms of censorship while taking steps to minimize... See more Charlie Bavington wrote:
Someone, somewhere is following this thread because it has been removed from those shown on the front page. Still, 2-3 years ago it probably would have been locked if not deleted, so we should acknowledge progress.
****
A saving grace, perhaps, although a cynic might argue that permitting the airing of such views simply allows the site to have it both ways (i.e., by claiming clean hands in terms of censorship while taking steps to minimize discussion [and, ipso facto, dissemination] thereof through the "quarantining" strategy mentioned in my last post).
[Edited at 2011-12-30 16:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hunting down one person won't solve the underlying problems | Dec 30, 2011 |
On 8 Aug 2010 Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
However a 2nd trend is that every 5th-grader with a German Shepherd or access to Google Translate seems to start translating clinical trial texts or texts about nuclear power plants from English into German or other languages. These people have no understanding of the topic they translate and these people are at least as dangerous to the professional translators as agencies paying peanuts.
It is easy to spot these people, they normally have an empty profile, not answered any questions and they always shoot series of questions which to everybody with even the most minimum knowledge in the area are dead easy to answer.
Independent of the Proz rules I have been voting these questions as being non-pro and from time to time I still do it. It is my way of telling the asker "in my opinion you should not have accepted this document".
http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/162920-voters_for_pro_non_pro_should_also_provide_an_answer_or_peer_comment-page2.html
Hi Kim,
the above is still my opinion.
However the person that is meant here does not fit the profile I defined
We are talking about:
a paying member
a ProZ certified Pro
a published author
a person with a diploma in technical/scientific translation
a member of the UK's Translator's association and its Spanish counterpart ASETRAD as well as an elected member of the British Society of Authors
15 positive WWA entries
a member with a record of attending several training sessions in legal terminology and Trados use
Ok, she might ask a lot of questions, ok, she might ask questions that are easy to answer and she might even ask questions that show a certain lack of knowledge in certain areas.
But what is this talk about "abuse her clients and other translators". Her clients seem to be happy with her work. She is not abusing any translators at all, the people answering her question do it because they want to answer.
A statement such as "She is allowed to claim on ProZ that she is a native speaker of English, which is belied by a glance at her writing." is in my opinion not a valid one. There are so many variants of English, that I do believe that it is often very difficult to judge if somebody is English native or not.
Statements such as "Should we offer her of the flamboyant neckwear a link? gave me the impression that this discussion is not about a kudoz/askers/answerers issue, it seemed more like a very personal thing, therefore my conclusion about the "witch hunt".
To me there is a huge difference between the group of people I described as being a danger to our profession and this person.
Kim Metzger wrote:
But I think you would be safe to assume that our colleagues aren't on a witch hunt here and that you would be on the same page with them if she had been frequenting German/English KudoZ for the past several years with a similar barrage of questions, say for translations in the medical field into German.
Kim, in this case I would have blocked her long ago, and I might have asked the agencies I work for not to send me her texts for editing/review but I would not make a single person the topic of a Proz forum. The underlying problems go much deeper and hunting down one person won't solve any of them.
| | | | Ty Kendall
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| This is perhaps a unique case.... | Dec 30, 2011 |
I agree that this translator doesn't fit the typical profile of your average ProZ abuser/irritant. Most professionals with her credentials wouldn't accept jobs in language pairs that they are ill-equipped to handle. I would actually go as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt and saying that she is probably a decent translator.....in English-Spanish. Where I begin to question things is in offering any other language pair, especially in languages where even the translator in question ... See more I agree that this translator doesn't fit the typical profile of your average ProZ abuser/irritant. Most professionals with her credentials wouldn't accept jobs in language pairs that they are ill-equipped to handle. I would actually go as far as giving her the benefit of the doubt and saying that she is probably a decent translator.....in English-Spanish. Where I begin to question things is in offering any other language pair, especially in languages where even the translator in question acknowledges that her level of acquisition is "basic".
In addition, I have to say that yes, there are a lot of varieties of English, but it is still relatively easy for any native speaker (even non-linguists) to spot the difference between a non-standard variety of English (say Indian English, BEV etc which have distinctive features) and completely non-native English. This translator's English unfortunately falls into the latter category. - In her defence, her English is actually of a generally good standard, from what I've seen - good enough for a source language.
However, we should also keep in mind that no matter long a list of awards, credentials, accomplishments etc, this doesn't necessarily entail that the person behind them will act professionally (as this case demonstrates).
I believe that people would be equally annoyed if the same questions were coming from a blank profile, no details, non-paying member with apparently no credentials.
As they say, actions speak louder than words, and this translators actions (on kudoz) leave a lot to be desired, regardless of her WWAs, list of training sessions etc. ▲ Collapse
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Rachel Fell
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gallagy2 wrote:
At least she gives context and sometimes the questions can provoke discussion...
...Kudos has replaced doing crosswords for me.
Dunno so much about the context, but a repeated formulaic question phrase which might suggest a somewhat cavalier attitude, and I certainly still do crosswords
| | | | Ty Kendall
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| Just to pick up on an earlier point.... | Dec 31, 2011 |
....that by asking the upper most limit on your question entitlement you aren't actually breaking any rules and therefore it isn't abuse....
...I would dispute that point. It's all about the letter and spirit of the law (or rule in this case).
You can obey the letter of the law, whilst still violating the spirit of it. I would argue that the translator under discussion in this thread is doing just that...acting within the confines of the rules but taking advanta... See more ....that by asking the upper most limit on your question entitlement you aren't actually breaking any rules and therefore it isn't abuse....
...I would dispute that point. It's all about the letter and spirit of the law (or rule in this case).
You can obey the letter of the law, whilst still violating the spirit of it. I would argue that the translator under discussion in this thread is doing just that...acting within the confines of the rules but taking advantage of other people's goodwill to complete translations she probably shouldn't have taken on board in the first place. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | General rather than specific? | Dec 31, 2011 |
Although the actions of one individual were the catalyst for the thread, I can't help but think that the known facts have been set out and we are now in the realms of supposition and hypothesis as far as she specifically is concerned. She is far from the only person with a 4-digit questions asked figure, and my own feeling is that it may be more constructive to discuss the matter more generally.
I agree entirely that just because something is within the rules doesn't make it right. ... See more Although the actions of one individual were the catalyst for the thread, I can't help but think that the known facts have been set out and we are now in the realms of supposition and hypothesis as far as she specifically is concerned. She is far from the only person with a 4-digit questions asked figure, and my own feeling is that it may be more constructive to discuss the matter more generally.
I agree entirely that just because something is within the rules doesn't make it right. All the more so in this case since the rule was set at such an absurdly lenient or generous level, such that you can act within the rules and still flagrantly take the piss.
And I'd still like to hear about the benefits to the rest of us of a rule that allows a person (anyone) to post 15 questions a day the answers to which can be found in any dictionary.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
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| What happened to Kim's post? | Dec 31, 2011 |
What happened to Kim Metzger's post, segments of which were quoted by Siegfried?
I do not see it included as part of this thread.
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Robert Forstag wrote:
What happened to Kim Metzger's post, segments of which were quoted by Siegfried?
I do not see it included as part of this thread.
Hi Robert,
It's still there on page 4
| | | | Robert Forstag
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| Credentials and defending the indefensible (Reply to Siegfried) | Dec 31, 2011 |
As others have pointed out, some of the credentials listed by the individual are of dubious validity. As for being "a published author," one would have to know about the quality of the book's writing and its public and critical reception (i.e., beyond jacket blurbs and friends' endorsements) to know if this is something meaningful or not.
But, for the sake of argument, let's assume this person has written a string of bestsellers, won a Nobel prize, and been hailed by unimpeachable a... See more As others have pointed out, some of the credentials listed by the individual are of dubious validity. As for being "a published author," one would have to know about the quality of the book's writing and its public and critical reception (i.e., beyond jacket blurbs and friends' endorsements) to know if this is something meaningful or not.
But, for the sake of argument, let's assume this person has written a string of bestsellers, won a Nobel prize, and been hailed by unimpeachable authorities as one of the most eminent contemporary translators (i.e., in one or more of the multiple pairs in which she plies her trade). Her behavior would still be reprehensible.
I think everyone here agrees that the problems under discussion go beyond this individual, but your insistent and yet implausible justification of what most observers see as unacceptable conduct keeps bringing the discussion back to her. With a defense lawyer like this, one doesn't need a prosecutor!
One who really wants to serve this individual would be well advised to abandon a toothless defense of her professionally self-destructive behavior in a public forum, instead urge her directly to stop the insanity. This would at least give her a chance to listen to a friendly voice amid the ever-growing chorus of unfriendly voices.
[Edited at 2011-12-31 16:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
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| Struggling for benefits Charlie | Dec 31, 2011 |
When I first arrived to the thread, I actually wanted to play devil's advocate and defend her.
However, in the face of all the evidence, I just found this impossible. I believe others have claimed that one possible benefit is that she is contributing to the glossary....but contributing how? ...with terms that (like Charlie said) can be found with the most rudimentary research (either by using a dictionary or a few minutes on a well known search engine).
Surely the q... See more When I first arrived to the thread, I actually wanted to play devil's advocate and defend her.
However, in the face of all the evidence, I just found this impossible. I believe others have claimed that one possible benefit is that she is contributing to the glossary....but contributing how? ...with terms that (like Charlie said) can be found with the most rudimentary research (either by using a dictionary or a few minutes on a well known search engine).
Surely the quality of the glossary is at stake too? I'm not going to claim to be an expert in any of the languages involved (I have a passing familiarity with Spanish & Italian, French may as well be Martian to me), but even I have noticed the odd dodgy glossary entry arising out of the abundance of questions, and related to this - answers selected which don't reflect the best one (or even the most helpful)....
...and on some of the question/answers I saw it was like the blind leading the blind, God knows what mess this will make of the glossary in these language pairs.
I suppose one benefit could be that in the midst of all these questions there will be the odd gem which generates discussion and would make a worthwhile glossary entry. However, in my opinion these questions should be the norm, not the exception. ▲ Collapse
| | | | B D Finch
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| Criteria for judgment | Jan 3, 2012 |
On 8 Aug 2010 Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
...
We are talking about:
a paying member
a ProZ certified Pro
a published author
a person with a diploma in technical/scientific translation
a member of the UK's Translator's association and its Spanish counterpart ASETRAD as well as an elected member of the British Society of Authors
15 positive WWA entries
a member with a record of attending several training sessions in legal terminology and Trados use
...
But what is this talk about "abuse her clients and other translators". Her clients seem to be happy with her work. She is not abusing any translators at all, the people answering her question do it because they want to answer.
A statement such as "She is allowed to claim on ProZ that she is a native speaker of English, which is belied by a glance at her writing." is in my opinion not a valid one. There are so many variants of English, that I do believe that it is often very difficult to judge if somebody is English native or not. ...
1. She is not a certified Pro for English as a target language.
2. The published book she cites appears to have been written by her in Spanish and it is not mentioned on her profile on the Society of Authors website.
3. What exactly is "the UK's Translator's association"? The only UK membership she actually cites is the Translators section of the Society of Authors.
4. The website of the Society of Authors states:
"Full Membership is open to:
* writers, illustrators and translators who have had a full-length work published (not at the author's expense), broadcast, or performed commercially
* those who have had at least a dozen occasional items (eg. articles or short stories) published or broadcast
* those who are the owners/administrators of a deceased author’s estate
* those who have self-published and have sold over 200 copies of a single title within a 12-month period"
The first three of the above don't actually specify that the work had to have been originally written by the author in English. The fourth does not require anything more than vanity publishing and purchasing one's own work or getting friends and family to do so.
5. WWA entries are, perhaps, for other language pairs.
6. While much of her CV is impressive, I did notice reference to the City University "Institute of Linguists Diploma in Translation Course", which is a correspondence course offered by City University as preparation for the exams of the Chartered Institute of Linguists. However, there is no mention of her ever having obtained the diploma, which is much more difficult than registering for a correspondance course.
As translators, many of our clients are in a poor position to judge the quality of our work. It is easier for clients who are native in the target language, than those who are native in the source language to make a judgment, as they can at least see whether the translated document seems well-written, even if they don't know how well it reflects the source text.
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Ty Kendall
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| Doesn't add up | Jan 6, 2012 |
In addition to what BD Finch has discussed....
I also perused the CV...there are some things(dates etc) that just don't add up.....
She claims to have gained a BA in Political Science from the University of Missouri..the dates listed are 1994-1995...ONE year? For a BA?....
She also claims 16 years of experience...but then she claims she took GCSE's in 1991 with a note that they were taken 2 years early (which should make her 14 years old in 1991 since these... See more In addition to what BD Finch has discussed....
I also perused the CV...there are some things(dates etc) that just don't add up.....
She claims to have gained a BA in Political Science from the University of Missouri..the dates listed are 1994-1995...ONE year? For a BA?....
She also claims 16 years of experience...but then she claims she took GCSE's in 1991 with a note that they were taken 2 years early (which should make her 14 years old in 1991 since these exams are traditionally taken at 16yrs)....which would make her 18 when she started translating to give her 16 years of experience....not impossible but a bit young and definitely before she gained any translation related credentials or higher certificates at all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
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| In the end, the validity of credentials doesn't matter | Jan 8, 2012 |
Although the points made regarding her dubious credentials are well taken, it is possible to not only concede her professional qualifications, but even (as I pointed out in a previous post in this thread) assume far greater achievements on her part, without undermining the case that she is both abusing the system and proferring services in language pairs and fields in which she lacks professional competence.
Conversely, if she had listed only modest credentials, her professional and... See more Although the points made regarding her dubious credentials are well taken, it is possible to not only concede her professional qualifications, but even (as I pointed out in a previous post in this thread) assume far greater achievements on her part, without undermining the case that she is both abusing the system and proferring services in language pairs and fields in which she lacks professional competence.
Conversely, if she had listed only modest credentials, her professional and onsite behavior would be no less reprehensible.
In any case, whatever her supposed qualifications, she has clearly not succeeded in defining a professional profile that has allowed her to do work within her sphere of competence. Advertising that one is a (particularly inept) jack of all trades is not exactly an astute marketing strategy.
Two final points:
1.)
I interpret her non-response to the complaints raised in this and previous threads as a sign of personal embarrassment, and a recognition that her behavior is out of bounds.
2.)
I strongly suspect that the individual in question not only abuses the Kudoz system, but the good will of colleagues willing to bail her out through more involved (and private) help when she accepts projects that she is incapable of handling. Grasping this point seems to me essential for understanding some of the animosity this individual has generated among certain site users and members.
[Edited at 2012-01-09 01:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
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| She's at it again | Jan 27, 2012 |
12 Questions
5 of them in less than 10 minutes
Often run-on sentences
Most of which even Google translate could have done a decent job with.
It beggars belief
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