| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers? Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: XXXphxxx (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ
Sindy Cremer wrote:
At least once a day we should all have a stab at changing the world. I know that right is enshrined somewhere or other
| | | | | Who is next to claim that only he/she or a certain group should be allowed to use Kudoz | Mar 1, 2012 |
Let me first clarify: should I for example, who normally translate medical texts, take on a translation of a legal text and then post a question(s) on KudoZ, relying on the goodwill and time of my colleagues to help me with my translation?
I’m sure this topic must have been covered elsewhere, yet I cannot find it. I’ve seen discussions on whether non-expert translators should ANSWER KudoZ questions but not on whether they should ASK them.
Every now and then I try a... See more Let me first clarify: should I for example, who normally translate medical texts, take on a translation of a legal text and then post a question(s) on KudoZ, relying on the goodwill and time of my colleagues to help me with my translation?
I’m sure this topic must have been covered elsewhere, yet I cannot find it. I’ve seen discussions on whether non-expert translators should ANSWER KudoZ questions but not on whether they should ASK them.
Every now and then I try and help colleagues by answering KudoZ questions. However, it doesn’t take long before I become frustrated by the number of questions posted by people translating they don't understand and I then ask myself whether I’m simply supporting bad translation practices and give up answering. A question was posted today with a proposed translation that showed the poster was incapable of understanding the most basic health related terminology, let alone ‘real medical terminology’. Is anyone else bothered by this and do we think that a valuable tool is being lost because other translators are walking away from KudoZ, equally disheartened?
Feel free to use the above text as a template and enter your own specialty.
In my opinion we don't need another rule, there are already to many. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | More seriously | Mar 1, 2012 |
It’s not actually off-topic. You (inadvertently) put me on the spot whereby I had to make a judgement of your English, thankfully there wasn’t any bad news to relay, but more often than not there is. I’ve seen so many heated debates where non-natives are incensed and declare that they are perfectly within their rights to translate into English because it’s a free world, they’ve lived in an English-speaking country for ‘x’ number of years and so on. In fact, all I want to say is “... See more It’s not actually off-topic. You (inadvertently) put me on the spot whereby I had to make a judgement of your English, thankfully there wasn’t any bad news to relay, but more often than not there is. I’ve seen so many heated debates where non-natives are incensed and declare that they are perfectly within their rights to translate into English because it’s a free world, they’ve lived in an English-speaking country for ‘x’ number of years and so on. In fact, all I want to say is “Sorry love, your English just simply isn’t up to it!” but I can’t, perhaps I’m just too darned English ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
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| The non-near-native (by a long shot) non-native | Mar 1, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
There are dozens upon dozens of people (if not hundreds) regularly taking part in these fora translating into English and whose language is utterly flawed (I very much doubt that they know it themselves).
Which is what discussions like the present one are really about.
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564354352 (X)
Δανία
Local time: 11:00
Δανέζικα σε Αγγλικά
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| What you are really asking (maybe?) | Mar 2, 2012 |
... is whether non-native speakers should be 'allowed' to translate into anything but their mother tongue.
As native English-speaking people, in my humble opinion, you do not have a monopoly on translating into English. You may be better at writing 'perfect' English, but you are not necessarily better at understanding the languages that you translate FROM than those who are native speakers of such languages.
I agree with Sindy that there are many excellent translators w... See more ... is whether non-native speakers should be 'allowed' to translate into anything but their mother tongue.
As native English-speaking people, in my humble opinion, you do not have a monopoly on translating into English. You may be better at writing 'perfect' English, but you are not necessarily better at understanding the languages that you translate FROM than those who are native speakers of such languages.
I agree with Sindy that there are many excellent translators who translate into English because they are experts in their mother tongue and have excellent grasp of English, too. Why shouldn't such translators be 'allowed' to ask questions?
Forgive me, but it is such an arrogant view to think that you 'native' speakers are the only people in the world who can produce 'proper' translations into English. Many of us 'non-natives' with 'minority' languages have many years of linguistic education behind us and yes, we ARE actually capable of translating into English. We HAVE to be able to, because native English-speakers do not always have the same opportunities to learn OUR languages, let alone ever grasp the intricate subtleties in our languages that they need to in order to translate into 'proper' English. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
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| This argument never sways me.... | Mar 2, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
Forgive me, but it is such an arrogant view to think that you 'native' speakers are the only people in the world who can produce 'proper' translations into English. Many of us 'non-natives' with 'minority' languages have many years of linguistic education behind us and yes, we ARE actually capable of translating into English. We HAVE to be able to, because native English-speakers do not always have the same opportunities to learn OUR languages, let alone ever grasp the intricate subtleties in our languages that they need to in order to translate into 'proper' English.
The only thing this argument convinces me of is that some native English speaking translators need to learn their source languages better.
It's exceedingly rare for me to encounter a nuance or subtlety in Hebrew that:
a) I don't know straight out
b) I couldn't work out/infer from context/other linguistic/non-linguistic clues
Detecting subtleties/nuances in the source language is, in my opinion, the less demanding task. It's far more frequent and far more "treacherous" (i.e. "hazardous because of presenting hidden or unpredictable dangers") to transfer these subtleties into the target language, which is where there's no substitute for a native speaker of the target language.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | Diverting from your specialist area | Mar 2, 2012 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
Let me first clarify: should I for example, who normally translate medical texts, take on a translation of a legal text and then post a question(s) on KudoZ, relying on the goodwill and time of my colleagues to help me with my translation?
Feel free to use the above text as a template and enter your own specialty.
In my opinion we don't need another rule, there are already to many.
I have no issue with people enquiring about terminology outside their specialist areas. The example I gave mentioned this only because the ‘crime’ was compounded by evident ignorance of legal terminology. I have little doubt that a native speaker of English with no knowledge of legal terms would have done a better job. Of course, subject areas overlap all the time and it’s difficult to decide who is better for the job – technical or legal, medical or sport? A translation may be needed of a piece of software for the financial markets or a contract for a complex piece of machinery and you may not have a translator who can straddle both. In principle, I don’t see any problem with asking your more expert colleagues for one-off help in this instance. I myself recently had to translate some tourist literature which mentioned a very typically Belgian architectural feature and I was thoroughly stumped. After many hours of research, I posted the question on KudoZ and it prompted a lively debate in the ‘Architecture’ category. As an aside, I was astonished to see what a delightful and helpful bunch they were. After a few days of thrashing it out we got there in the end and a suitable English term was found. Nevertheless, it was a one-off, one term out of several thousand. Frankly, even if we’re talking about 10 terms in one day (out of many months) I still wouldn’t have any issue with that. That there are people abusing the system is undeniable and those of us who receive KudoZ notifications will see the same people coming back over and over and over again.
So, returning to the original grumble, translating into a non-native language is another matter entirely and that is something that can be controlled with a few settings, a quota could be introduced for the odd occasion when a translator needs to confirm a term in a reverse pair. Sometimes we’re all too eager to impress our clients that we forget that they can often be in the best position to iron out queries and are invariably more than willing to do so. I’ve had one shirty response to a request for queries in 20 years of translation.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 10:00
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | That 'non-near-native non-native' | Mar 2, 2012 |
Yes Michele, that just about sums it up, it's non-near-non-sense.
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Jaroslaw Michalak
Πολωνία
Local time: 11:00
Μέλος από 2004
Αγγλικά σε Πολωνικά
SITE LOCALIZER
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's exceedingly rare for me to encounter a nuance or subtlety in Hebrew that:
a) I don't know straight out
b) I couldn't work out/infer from context/other linguistic/non-linguistic clues
No, you just think you got all the subtleties, just like those who translate into non-native languages are pretty confident they produce perfect English. In other words, the non-native language always seem much more straightforward than it really is, no matter whether you read it or produce it.
The only difference is that it is much easier to detect lack of sufficient knowledge of the target language (e.g. in translation). To do that the target audience (usually comprised of native speakers of the language) just needs to read the final text. Minute deficiencies in reading of the source text could be detected only by native speakers of that language who have sufficient knowledge of the translation (or are doing page-by-page comparison).
[Edited at 2012-03-02 08:49 GMT]
| | | | | No more rules, please... | Mar 2, 2012 |
I’m just wondering what the criteria for near-native non-native status are?
And who is going to define them?
If the end client has no problem with it, why should you?
I would like to see you find a sufficient number of native translators in my language pair to meet the local demand. Also, I do not know any native English translator in my pair with court authorisation… (the authorisation by itself signifies nothing; it is not a measure of quality, however it is required f... See more I’m just wondering what the criteria for near-native non-native status are?
And who is going to define them?
If the end client has no problem with it, why should you?
I would like to see you find a sufficient number of native translators in my language pair to meet the local demand. Also, I do not know any native English translator in my pair with court authorisation… (the authorisation by itself signifies nothing; it is not a measure of quality, however it is required for some jobs)
Oh, I am aware of my limitations as a translator to/user of a foreign language, and I am never that self-assured to believe that I can translate it better. And I prefer translating to my mother tongue, too. But ARE you (really) aware of your limitations in grasping the local jargon, or language intricacies which is also essential for a good translator (according to my opinion). (as Lisa Simpson wrote: There are dozens upon dozens of people (if not hundreds) regularly taking part in these fora translating into English and whose language is utterly flawed (I very much doubt that they know it themselves).)
Some of the best works of our renowned author, a Nobel Prize winner, Ivo Andric, were translated by a non-native, also very much renowned, PhD Svetozar Koljevic. I sincerely doubt that anybody else (read: any native) could’ve done the better job.
And to answer your initial question: If you don’t like to aid and abet the non-native translators in Kudoz, it’s at your discretion. It’s as simple as that. Don’t make another rule. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | A translation should not read like a translation | Mar 2, 2012 |
At least that is what I was taught on day 1 of translation classes - I rest my case.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Βοσνία και Ερζεγοβίνη
Local time: 11:00
Μέλος από 2009
Αγγλικά σε Κροατικά
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| Literature translation | Mar 2, 2012 |
There are some great non-native English authors such as Vladimir Nabokov (Russian) or Joseph Conrad (Polish) who didn't even learn English until he was 21 years old - but produced some excellent pieces nonetheless.
KudoZ and informal nature of translating via KudoZ aside, here is an interesting review of English translation of the The River on the Drina novel by Ivo Andric (Serbo-Croatian author and Nobel Prize Winner). The review is about an official, published and printed/distribu... See more There are some great non-native English authors such as Vladimir Nabokov (Russian) or Joseph Conrad (Polish) who didn't even learn English until he was 21 years old - but produced some excellent pieces nonetheless.
KudoZ and informal nature of translating via KudoZ aside, here is an interesting review of English translation of the The River on the Drina novel by Ivo Andric (Serbo-Croatian author and Nobel Prize Winner). The review is about an official, published and printed/distributed translation by native English speaker, not about some KudoZ phrases. Btw, the book (original) is full of cultural /historical/social references. I guess they picked a native English speaker for the writing to flow better, while a lot of it was obviously lost in translation.
Source: http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Drina-Phoenix-Fiction/product-reviews/0226020452/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Novel: The Bridge on the Drina, by Ivo Andric
Translator: Lovett F. Edwards
From: Amazon.com
"
3.0 out of 5 stars Praise for the book, doubt about the translation, February 3, 2007
By
Nina Kramer
This review is from: The Bridge on the Drina (Phoenix Fiction) (Paperback)
I have the book in the original. Edwards' translation is terrible. He has not only a dubious aesthetic sense, but his grasp of the Serbian language is wanting. In places the translation is literal; in places it is wrong. There is scarcely a line of dialogue translated flawlessly. I recommend keeping all this in mind when reading.
On the other hand, Andric's chronicle is all it aspires to be. It is a careful description of the famous Bosnian town where he spent his childhood, the town that hugs the bridge that Mehmed-pasha Sokolovichi built. Naturally, the portion of it which intersects his life, and which consists of the twenty-two years that pass from 1892 to 1914, will be found more interesting than the rest, in my opinion; but Andric knows his weakness, and the bulk of the book lies just in that portion.
"
[Edited at 2012-03-02 09:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 10:00
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | The point being? | Mar 2, 2012 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
There are some great non-native English authors such as Vladimir Nabokov (Russian) or Joseph Conrad (Polish) who didn't even learn English until he was 21 year old - but produced some excellent pieces nonetheless.
KudoZ and informal nature of translating via KudoZ aside, here is an intersting review of English translation of the The River on the Drina novel by Ivo Andric (Serbo-Croatian author and Novel Prize Winner). The review is about an official, published and printed/distributed translation by native English speaker, not about some KudoZ phrases. Btw, the book (original) is full of cultural /historical/social references. I guess they picked a native English speaker for the writing to flow better, while a lot of it was obviously lost in translation.
Novel: The Bridge on the Drina, by Ivo Andric
Translator: Lovett F. Edwards
From: Amazon.com
"
3.0 out of 5 stars Praise for the book, doubt about the translation, February 3, 2007
By
Nina Kramer
This review is from: The Bridge on the Drina (Phoenix Fiction) (Paperback)
I have the book in the original. Edwards' translation is terrible. He has not only a dubious aesthetic sense, but his grasp of the Serbian language is wanting. In places the translation is literal; in places it is wrong. There is scarcely a line of dialogue translated flawlessly. I recommend keeping all this in mind when reading.
On the other hand, Andric's chronicle is all it aspires to be. It is a careful description of the famous Bosnian town where he spent his childhood, the town that hugs the bridge that Mehmed-pasha Sokolovichi built. Naturally, the portion of it which intersects his life, and which consists of the twenty-two years that pass from 1892 to 1914, will be found more interesting than the rest, in my opinion; but Andric knows his weakness, and the bulk of the book lies just in that portion.
"
[Edited at 2012-03-02 09:12 GMT]
That they picked a bad translator (I'm not surprised, since they are in the majority and there are millions of examples of shoddy translation out there) or that no English person could ever have translated this book?
[Edited at 2012-03-02 09:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-03-02 09:21 GMT]
| | | | Lingua 5B
Βοσνία και Ερζεγοβίνη
Local time: 11:00
Μέλος από 2009
Αγγλικά σε Κροατικά
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| The book is hard to grasp even for native speakers | Mar 2, 2012 |
.. let alone an English person. I don't know whether they could, once they do you come to me and refer me to it.
Btw, how could they launch an English translation (by native translator) that doesn't flow well? I'm not talking about KudoZ here, this is much more serious. Aren't the target publishers responsible for this?
| | | | | If required I'll go for the non native translator with profound domain expertise | Mar 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I have no issue with people enquiring about terminology outside their specialist areas.
I have no issue either with people enquiring about terminology outside their specialist are, this can happen to all of us. But I do have a problem with translators who translate outside of their specialist areas e.g. legal translators translating patient information leaflets for drugs.
I have little doubt that a native speaker of English with no knowledge of legal terms would have done a better job.
This is a point where we don't agree. If required I would always go for the non native domain specialist. It is often easier to sort out the linguistic problems compared to a translation done by somebody who does not understand the topic.
We try to use medical experts for medical texts, legal experts for legal texts etc.
If we can find native experts in the various domains, perfect, if not, we prefer the non native domain experts over the native non expert.
I don't want to generalize, but in my opinion this seems to be one of the trends in our industry - expertise wins over native speaker status.
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