| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers? Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: XXXphxxx (X)
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| And did you never get any further? | Mar 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
At least that is what I was taught on day 1 of translation classes - I rest my case.
Maybe you never got any further.
That is the ideal that we all strive for - in many situations. But it is not the be-all and end-all of translation.
I entirely agree with Gitte Skov Hansen - I think this 'native speaker' thing is getting arrogant and sometimes unreasonable.
When I studied legal translation, we had numerous discussions about 'source oriented' versus 'target oriented' translations.
When you translate a Danish legal document, then very often it should NOT look like an original, untranslated document. It is a working document, and often includes a proviso that in case opf discrepancies, the Danish source takes precedence. The translation is still a DANISH legal document and should not be mistaken for anything else, so it must in some places read like a translation.
If it is a contract, then it is still subject to Danish law. The terminology may sound non-native to English speakers, but this is because it refers to concepts that are not the same as their approximate equivalents in other legal systems. There is correct terminology for translating Danish law into English, and it MUST be used, because anything else might be misleading.
For instance the ownership of property between spouses (joint or separate) and the division of it on termination of the marriage (death or divorce) is slightly different under Danish law from English law.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
The example I gave mentioned this only because the ‘crime’ was compounded by evident ignorance of legal terminology. I have little doubt that a native speaker of English with no knowledge of legal terms would have done a better job.
(my emphasis)
No, love, I can guarantee that in the situation I have described above, most English native speakers' with no knowledge of legal terms would not understand the source text, and their translation would be hopelessly inaccurate. I confess, I have been there and done it myself before I was fully trained.
Nevertheless, I have proofread instances of texts by native speakers of English that have very little to do with the meaning of the source text. In a working document it is simply not good enough.
I have seen medical texts where basic Danish expressions were completely and dangerously misunderstood. Confused with other expressions, homonyms etc. but where, with all due repect to Ty Kendall, the translator had NOT picked up what was meant from the context. A qualified Danish translator would catch the meaning instantly.
I have proofread for a lot of Danes with Master's degrees (i.e. five years' study plus practical experience beyond Day 1 of their training...) who make an excellent job of translating law or medicine into English. You can also be sure it is accurate, which is the prime concern in these cases.
They may write 'however' in odd places, and I remove a comma here and there, but believe me, they know what they are doing, and they know their limitations. They ask and check until they get it right.
Very few English natives could do it better.
Of course there are Danes without training too, but they grow up with English from a very early age, and very few Brits grow up with foreign languages in the same way. We cannot always measure others with our own yardstick
I rest my case - I have some Danish law to deliver in English - and a luckily I have a Danish proofreader to check it over...
Have a good weekend, folks!
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ
1) Easy on the sarcasm please, day 1 was to illustrate this very fundamental rule.
2) The translations you refer to are into ‘international’ English, which is not what is being discussed here.
If ProZ rules allowed me to copy and paste the KudoZ howler in question I’m sure you would find it very hard indeed to disagree. Since they don’t, it remains a moot point.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 12:28 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
Κίνα
Local time: 11:26
Κινεζικά σε Αγγλικά
| On Ty's side on this one | Mar 2, 2012 |
I'm sure this all depends on one's individual experience. Mine has been very similar to Ty's.
On most occasions, I'm arguing with Chinese speakers who are not professional translators - by which I mean they are either not translators or not very professional. On the few occasions I've talked in detail with good Chinese native translators, we've had disagreements about how to translate Chinese-English, but I could understand their position, and generally I could see their suggestions... See more I'm sure this all depends on one's individual experience. Mine has been very similar to Ty's.
On most occasions, I'm arguing with Chinese speakers who are not professional translators - by which I mean they are either not translators or not very professional. On the few occasions I've talked in detail with good Chinese native translators, we've had disagreements about how to translate Chinese-English, but I could understand their position, and generally I could see their suggestions as valid possibilities.
However, as I say, that is a vanishingly small minority of cases. Mostly I have to deal with proofreaders/first translators (back when I still did proofreading) who are not competent, but who believe that their grasp of Chinese makes them competent. Contra Jabberwock, what often happens is that they get hung up on a pet translation or pet distinction which seems very important to them, but is not accurate or relevant to the text; then complain vociferously when I disagree and try to impose English that actually makes sense.
I do agree that expertise is important, though. I've only ever been involved in one project where I thought the Chinese native translator-English native proofreader model actually worked, and that was medical texts. I couldn't read the handwriting, and would not have been competent to translate the originals; that was done by Chinese doctors. What I could do was check for consistency and grammar issues (lots of tense errors, which I could deal with). So, yes, in certain cases expertise can trump language proficiency. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| Please read between the lines.... | Mar 2, 2012 |
Jabberwock wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's exceedingly rare for me to encounter a nuance or subtlety in Hebrew that:
a) I don't know straight out
b) I couldn't work out/infer from context/other linguistic/non-linguistic clues
No, you just think you got all the subtleties, just like those who translate into non-native languages are pretty confident they produce perfect English. In other words, the non-native language always seem much more straightforward than it really is, no matter whether you read it or produce it.
The only difference is that it is much easier to detect lack of sufficient knowledge of the target language (e.g. in translation). To do that the target audience (usually comprised of native speakers of the language) just needs to read the final text. Minute deficiencies in reading of the source text could be detected only by native speakers of that language who have sufficient knowledge of the translation (or are doing page-by-page comparison). [Edited at 2012-03-02 08:49 GMT]
I didn't claim to never miss a nuance, I said it's "rare" for me to....which given that I'm working with a particular language I would hope it doesn't happen too often or I would question my ability to use it as a source language.
I have a healthy respect for my source language that makes me want to achieve a very high level in it, and even more so for my target language, which is why my target language is always my native language. Problems arise when people think their source language is "good enough" (for a 'source' language type attitude) and when people underestimate the pitfalls of writing in any other language than their first.
There are plenty of translators who overestimate their knowledge of a language, I'm not one of them...I'm perfectly aware of my own frailties.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 12:41 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| There's no need for the non-natives to become restless.... | Mar 2, 2012 |
I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that all translation should be done by native speakers of the target language.
There are a myriad of circumstances, situations, instances where this is neither possible nor desirable....
What I am saying is that translation, ceteris paribus - is preferably done by a native speaker of the target language....but if all things aren't equal (when specializations come into it) then it's more of a dilemma/choice.
... See more I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that all translation should be done by native speakers of the target language.
There are a myriad of circumstances, situations, instances where this is neither possible nor desirable....
What I am saying is that translation, ceteris paribus - is preferably done by a native speaker of the target language....but if all things aren't equal (when specializations come into it) then it's more of a dilemma/choice.
There's also the issue/argument of it being different markets (translation into Globish/translation into English). ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | Back to the original question | Mar 2, 2012 |
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
| | | | Steven Capsuto
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 22:26
Μέλος από 2004
Ισπανικά σε Αγγλικά
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
That does seem to be the majority opinion.
As someone who is ATA certified for translation into one of my non-native languages, I agree with it.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | For those of you who have accused the ‘natives’ of arrogance, allow me to explain. | Mar 2, 2012 |
I am born of British and Chinese/Singapore/Malaysian heritage (count the languages there), brought up and educated in Brazil from the age of 1 where I lived for 25 years. I went on to university, did my first degree and M.A. in Russian, lived in the then Soviet Union followed by 7 years working for Russians. Interspersed with that were periods in France and Spain; more recently ten years living in France. I have 2 French children for whom French is their first language. Now, I could count three ... See more I am born of British and Chinese/Singapore/Malaysian heritage (count the languages there), brought up and educated in Brazil from the age of 1 where I lived for 25 years. I went on to university, did my first degree and M.A. in Russian, lived in the then Soviet Union followed by 7 years working for Russians. Interspersed with that were periods in France and Spain; more recently ten years living in France. I have 2 French children for whom French is their first language. Now, I could count three or four languages that I could claim to be my native or near-native language, but being a stickler for high standards and absolutely aware of where my weaknesses lie, I’ve chosen to stick with one target and three (related) source languages. So, rather than being arrogant, I think I am simply attempting to point out that, in my view, adding ‘native’ speaker status to your profile and translating into that language is not to be undertaken lightly.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 18:03 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-03-02 19:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
Definitely.
Sorry about the sarcasm earlier. I feel strongly on this. And when I'm really feeling sarcastic I keep away from the computer!! The ModZ would really blush or rage as they removed my postings...
Nobody picked up on my comment that SOME of them are using English as an intermediate language between two unusual languages.
I was once involved - marginally - in a translation project from Danish to Latvian, and seriously, there is not much KudoZ activity - or help to be found - in pairs like that.
I believe that is a very good reason for allowing non-natives to ask KudoZ questions into any language they can use instead. Often there are very few dictionaries and other direct resources in those pairs.
Kudoz is for people who need help, and the less knowledge a translator has of the language concerned, source, target or intermediate, the more help needed. With luck, they will also improve.
If anyone really irritates you, block their questions and ignore them. Otherwise, as Mats Wiman always said, live and let live.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 14:32 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| No other recourse | Mar 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
Being the Mecca of tolerance ProZ is (this has positive and negative consequences), when you come across something you find distasteful/don't agree with you have no other choice but to ignore it.
The topic brings up all kinds of thorny issues (non-native translation, KudoZ abuse of various forms etc) where viewpoints are often diametrically opposed, I don't think it's that the majority would vote for the continuation of something they don't agree with, it's just the futility of arguing something which ProZ would never in a million years consider doing away with.
| | | | brown fox (X)
Local time: 06:26
Αγγλικά σε Ρωσικά
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| This goes on in endless circles. | Mar 2, 2012 |
A few years ago I left Proz and became unable to use Kudoz or participate in it. I survived, although I translate mostly the stuff which is not in the dictionaries, simply because the technology is too modern. Anyone with some brain can do fine without Kudoz.
Then I somehow strayed to Proz, saw a membership ad, made a membership payment, like a donation to nice people running a nice site, like I do to Wikipedia, filled my profile a bit, and visited Kudoz. I am not impressed by Kudoz... See more A few years ago I left Proz and became unable to use Kudoz or participate in it. I survived, although I translate mostly the stuff which is not in the dictionaries, simply because the technology is too modern. Anyone with some brain can do fine without Kudoz.
Then I somehow strayed to Proz, saw a membership ad, made a membership payment, like a donation to nice people running a nice site, like I do to Wikipedia, filled my profile a bit, and visited Kudoz. I am not impressed by Kudoz progress over the years during which I was absent. I don't see any. This is bad. In the world or tyre manufacturing, for example, if you don't have any progress, you are sliding downhill.
The best attitude to Kudoz is not using it, not knowing about it, this is exactly what my clients and colleagues do. (Or do they not? I am not a native.)
Have a nice working weekend,
Aleksandr
P.S. I am not going to read your responses, sorry. Any discussion of Kudoz is futile and wasteful. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My humble opinion | Mar 2, 2012 |
Regarding the specific topic of KudoZ questions asked by non-natives, my answer is YES, we must leave them alone (I mean, we must not ban them).
Why?
-Because there will always be interlopers in this profession, be they non-native or native.
Speaking (or smattering) a language (or sometimes just having an "edge" over others) lead certain persons to think they can translate at a professional level, and you won't counteract/stop this trend (and this flow of amateuri... See more Regarding the specific topic of KudoZ questions asked by non-natives, my answer is YES, we must leave them alone (I mean, we must not ban them).
Why?
-Because there will always be interlopers in this profession, be they non-native or native.
Speaking (or smattering) a language (or sometimes just having an "edge" over others) lead certain persons to think they can translate at a professional level, and you won't counteract/stop this trend (and this flow of amateurish questions) with mere "KudoZ rules".
-Because ProZ offers you a filter option which you can use to skim you pair threads from elements that are likely to unnerve you! (not only all sorts of amateurs but also 'ungrateful' people, who seem to think they are to be thanked for "points", while it's answerers who actually oblige them).
-Because you don't need to be a Nobel prize in poetry, have a personal 50,000-word lexicon or have lived in a foreign country for years - far from that - to be able to successfuly translate material that are purely technical/informative, like is often the case in technical translation (as opposed to literary or other book translation, and notwithstanding marketing translation and transcreation). There are cases were the key quality factor will be understanding the source, not writing in the target (as can be the case in Christine's story on Danish contracts), hence an advantage for people to translate into a source language, especially when the pair/direction in question does not offer translators galore.
(Maybe it's a cliché, but I don't think Anglo-saxon countries have the biggest pool of talented translators in the world! Cultural/technological dominance often leads to a reduced interest for foreign languages, which means a "reduced level of awareness and competency". I am not completely sure of that, though, and it does not mean all English translators are amateurs of course - I just seem to remember reading somewhere that UK would spend 10% of the budget France would allocate to language in education some years ago!)
I believe no other language is so commonly used to translate in the 'wrong direction' and so wrongly said to be 'a second mother tongue'.
As a matter of fact, in my opinion, this observation (that you don't need to be a prize winner) is especially true for English, as 1/ this is the "world language" (want it or not, English is everywhere!), 2/ many people start learning English at age 8-10 (or even earlier now - is this the case in Anglo-saxon countries?), 3/ English is possibly one of the easiest language you can think of (maybe after esperanto) - at least for speakers of a number of languages from the indo-european language family (little conjugation, few grammar rules, a difficulty that is often pointed out is pronunciation but you don't need it in translation. You seem to have many more words/much more vocabulary than any other language in the world (you are very resourceful and creative!) but as I said you don't need metaphors, idioms, purist terms or else exceedinly scholarly words to convey mere, 'no-frills' info).
-Incidentally, because unless I missed something, you can ask KudoZ questions that have nothing to do with your professional occupation (out of curiosity, to check a back-translation, or even to help you find inspiration in your own mother tongue, etc.). I know there are a number of other fora where you can do so, but where can you hope to get better answers than on an e-workplace for professional translators?
That said, I know English is a whole different case - a case in its own.
I can easily imagine how unnerving it can be to come accross so many amateurs who 'pretentiously' think they are good enough to translate into English properly and who contributes to lower your rates, your credibility and the level of English (or Globish) itself, notably when you are a fine and experienced wordsmith.
I know, too, that there is a gap between one's perception and one's actual knowledge and abilities.
Finally, I will say that to my mind translating in a specialty field that you have no knowledge in is much less tenable than translating into English on generic and/or straightforward contents.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 20:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-03-02 20:20 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-03-02 20:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Neil Coffey
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:26
Γαλλικά σε Αγγλικά
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| Under certain conditions... | Mar 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
As I said before, I don't see a big problem PROVIDED that the "non-nativeness" isn't detracting from the discussion actually being about *terminology*, which is the purpose of the KudoZ system, and not in effect becoming a "please correct my grammar" (etc) forum.
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
So is the majority vote therefore that non-native translators should continue to post as many questions as they like on KudoZ (be they of a specialist and/or non-specialist nature) and anyone who doesn't like it should simply ignore?
Well, they don't necessarily have to CONTINUE to post as many questions as they like, but they definitely should be ALLOWED TO, and if you don't like it - ignore it. There are other areas we could focus on to make the world a better place and if I had too much energy I'd rather channel it to stop poverty and famine than to fight KudoZ posters, no matter how cheeky/inexperienced/incompetent I may find them.
Just let me add one more thing - you are looking from the perspective of the UK system. In Poland, for example, any document for official use must be translated by a sworn translator. The only way to become a sworn translator is to pass an exam organized by the Polish Ministry of Justice, which involves translating and interpreting highly specialized texts from Polish into English and from English into Polish. Once you've done that, in order to certify any translation you have to see the original document first, so many clients prefer to use services of a local translator to avoid mailing the documents.
Now, the only British translators of Polish I have ever met lived in the UK and couldn't utter a sentence in my native language. Therefore, at least in my language pair, there will always be Polish translators working into English. At least until the new immigartion's bilingual offspring reaches maturity and becomes translators. I honestly love the idea of 'only ever translate into your mother tongue', but it's not always feasible.
[Edited at 2012-03-02 22:44 GMT]
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Δανία
Local time: 04:26
Δανέζικα σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
| Yes, of course they should! | Mar 2, 2012 |
I simply don't get your point. Do we want to help each other in our mutual language combinations or not?
I am a native Dane. I hold a BA in Danish/English/Spanish business communication and translation and an MA in Danish/Spanish business languages, translation and interpretation. I am a sworn translator in Danish/Spanish, which gives me the highest possible authority in Denmark to certify translations both into Danish AND into Spanish and to perform court translations (shoud I ever... See more I simply don't get your point. Do we want to help each other in our mutual language combinations or not?
I am a native Dane. I hold a BA in Danish/English/Spanish business communication and translation and an MA in Danish/Spanish business languages, translation and interpretation. I am a sworn translator in Danish/Spanish, which gives me the highest possible authority in Denmark to certify translations both into Danish AND into Spanish and to perform court translations (shoud I ever wan to) to and from both of those languages. I can certify translations made by native Spanish speakers who do not have the same authority in my country for such documents to be used in Spanish-speaking countries. If I need help translating into Spanish, why shouldn't I be allowed to ask a question on Kudoz?
And I am not unusual in this sense. Any professional Danish translator would have similar qualifications in their language combinations, and as Christine mentioned earlier, we have all grown up with English as our second language, which means that we have been learning English from the age of 8/9, i.e. 7-8 years at primary/lower secondary school, then 3 years at upper secondary school, then 3 years during BA studies and for some, another 2 years during their MA studies, not to mention any practical learning from time spent abroad (I lived and worked 8 years in England before starting my graduate studies). Add to this, that we are inundated with British/American television, music, internet and news, and you get language professionals with quite a solid background for translating into what you guys call our 'source' language. I call it my 'target' language'. I know my native language inside out, and that is my source language. I can see from some of the Kudoz questions from non-native Danish translators that this is their trouble, that they don't see what to me is blatantly obvious in sentence structures and word associations in Danish, and I am happy to help them understand my language better. And although sometimes I won't be able to render translations into English with the same nuances or the same finesse as native English speakers, at least I know for sure that I CAN render the message correctly, which is, more often than not, my clients' objective.
- As it happens, I do most of my work from Danish into English, not the other way round. So, if the answer to your question were 'no', Gitte should not be allowed to ask questions about the English or Spanish languages at Kudoz, where there are a relatively small group of people (I think) who are native English or Spanish speakers with excellent understanding of Danish (it is not exactly a language that lends itself to higher education outside Denmark), but they would be at all liberty to ask questions about translation from Danish into their languages, i.e. draw on MY native language experience, where on earth would the good reason be for that?
Oh, and one final thing: I pay the full membership fee here at ProZ. Why should my access to certain aspects of this service be limited?
[Edited at 2012-03-03 06:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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