| Σελίδες για το θέμα: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers? Αποστολέας σε συζήτηση: XXXphxxx (X)
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564354352 (X) 
Δανία
Local time: 04:22
Δανέζικα σε Αγγλικά
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| Danish Tourist Board translation | Mar 5, 2012 |
Hi Lisa
So, what's wrong with that?
Hahaha...
Come to Denmark, feel free... A country full of cowboys... Who can resist that?
| | | | | There never has been and never will be a definitive 'correct' version of English | Mar 5, 2012 |
I have often wondered why some Brits - myself included - get so worked up about correct English and the way some people mangle the language. I am totally unmusical, but nobody is anything like as rude when I try to sing.
I still hate split infinitives, and I have never really learnt to swear. I also write learnt, not learned... However, although I was not allowed to say OK as a child, I have learnt to say it in Danish, and it even invades (or whatever you like to call it) my uttera... See more I have often wondered why some Brits - myself included - get so worked up about correct English and the way some people mangle the language. I am totally unmusical, but nobody is anything like as rude when I try to sing.
I still hate split infinitives, and I have never really learnt to swear. I also write learnt, not learned... However, although I was not allowed to say OK as a child, I have learnt to say it in Danish, and it even invades (or whatever you like to call it) my utterances in my mother tongue.
I have also observed that our forbears have spread English even more widely around the globe than the Romans spread Latin. Although for KudoZ purposes English is English, Tom McArthur and others write about the English Languages - plural. That approach helps.
Just as we no longer speak the language of Shakespeare and Milton, or even Winston Churchill... neither do other users of English. Instead of regarding Italian, Spanish and French as bad Latin, we see them as beautiful languages of their own. We have to live with the fact that British English is only one of the 57 - or however many there are - varieties of English ...
Do we count authors like Mark Twain, Salman Rushdie (just to mention the first two non-British authors I can see from my computer chair) ... and so many others as native speakers of English? How dare I ask!
In another life I actually studied Chaucer and have read - glossary in hand - the whole of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I still have them on my bookshelf and can enjoy them when I feel like it. My mother studied ancient Icelandic and went even further back into the roots of our language. I half believed she was a personal friend of King Alfred .
Ever since there has been anything recognisable as English, there have been variants and dialects. I cultivated a Northumbrian burr when I was growing up, but it was too late - I never really acquired it.
Arnold Kellett's writings on the Yorkshire dialect today are interesting reading, as well as Peter Trudgill and others. I have not read Tom McArthur on Scots, but he is definitely on my to-do-list.
I would never, ever dare to say 'no English person would write...' - because I am regularly astounded by what they DO write. It may be creative and refreshing.
___________________
Back to the local duckpond as the Danes say. (The English might or might not catch the allusion to Hans Christian Andersen's tale of the Ugly Duckling....)
Danes say things about themselves that the English never would, or never in the same way. There lie cultural differences.
I don't suppose all the English on the Danish tourist site is the work of professional translators either, though some of it is. It is international English, for the majority of tourists who do not come from the British Isles.
Many Danes simply cannot afford us, and we don't have time. There are only so many translators out of a total population of five million. So just be thankful that they don't all resort to Google Translate...!
I turn up my nose at £65 for a thousand words, and may not have time for you at £70. I have to charge quite a lot more to cover my tax and Trados subscriptions on top of the cost of living in Denmark.
ESL English is not going to go away, so we have to accept it, and enjoy it where we can.
Quite apart from those who actually speak English from childhood, are educated in English and cannot communicate with the world in their local language, because it will not be understood. To many it feels like a native language, and I have stopped arguing with them.
[Edited at 2012-03-05 18:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής
Local time: 20:22
Νορβηγικά σε Αγγλικά
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| Non-native translator | Mar 5, 2012 |
Danish>English
'fatal output' (should be fatal outcome)
"XXX must never be taken with food or drink, which contains calcium". (The comma makes it mean all food and drink contains calcium, so never with food or drink. There should be no comma, meaning never with calcium containing food and drink.)
'medicine man products' (should be pharmaceutical products)
| | | | Dave Bindon
Ελλάδα
Local time: 05:22
Ελληνικά σε Αγγλικά
Εις μνήμην | My 1st thought... | Mar 5, 2012 |
...was that yes, questions by non-native speakers should be allowed. Whilst some of those questions show that the asker really shouldn't be translating into their non-native language, there are many translators who are near-native speakers who use Kudoz in a perfectly legitimate manner.
Having read some of the recent examples of translations by non-native speakers, however, I've changed my viewpoint slightly: I think some non-native speakers should be forced - at pain of deat... See more ...was that yes, questions by non-native speakers should be allowed. Whilst some of those questions show that the asker really shouldn't be translating into their non-native language, there are many translators who are near-native speakers who use Kudoz in a perfectly legitimate manner.
Having read some of the recent examples of translations by non-native speakers, however, I've changed my viewpoint slightly: I think some non-native speakers should be forced - at pain of death - to ask questions on Kudoz! ▲ Collapse
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post. | Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:22
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| But for the purposes of translation..... | Mar 5, 2012 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have often wondered why some Brits - myself included - get so worked up about correct English and the way some people mangle the language.
...because it's our language . The Americans sometimes like to think it's theirs, but many of us haven't forgotten who 'spawned' it - and it's never nice to see your progeny mistreated, abused or kidnapped.
There never has been and never will be a definitive 'correct' version of English
True, but for the purposes of translation at least, I'm yet to see a job posting that doesn't explicity demand/imply a preference for either UK or US English (even other 'native' variants of English don't get a look in - Australian, New Zealand, Canadian etc) much less this so-called 'international' English. So, even if you have the opinion that it is as valid as any other (I think you can tell I don't), at the moment at least, nobody is asking me for it.
ESL English is not going to go away, so we have to accept it, and enjoy it where we can.
Perhaps, but it doesn't mean we have to believe in/endorse its standing as equal to that of native variants. In other languages this wouldn't be such a radical belief, yet it is becoming politically incorrect to think so about English.
| | | | Dave Bindon
Ελλάδα
Local time: 05:22
Ελληνικά σε Αγγλικά
Εις μνήμην | A post-wine, not at all serious comment... | Mar 5, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have often wondered why some Brits - myself included - get so worked up about correct English and the way some people mangle the language.
...because it's our language
Ah, yes, 'our' language ... our mongrel Celtish/British/Anglo-Saxon/Viking/Norman language with heavy borrowing from Greek, Latin and (relatively modern) French [apologies to all the languages I've left out].
Like many mongrels it's inherited many of the best characteristics of its ancestors. It has now become the mixed-breed dog that is loved by its 'owners' and their friends alike.
We, the owners, will always think that our dog is the best of its type. Its siblings and cousins might only differ - outwardly at least - because of longer ears or a fluffier tail, but we'll always love our own dog above all of its relatives.
When someone else tries to stretch their own dog's ears and add extensions to its tail to make it resemble our dog, we can always tell the difference. Very few people have the skill to clone our beloved mongrel.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:22
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| Well Dave.... | Mar 5, 2012 |
You know what they say....In vino veritas.
Or in Hebrew "נכנס יין יצא סוד", pretty sure it exists in Greek too
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Giles Watson
Ιταλία
Local time: 04:22
Ιταλικά σε Αγγλικά
Εις μνήμην
Ty Kendall wrote:
Or in Hebrew "נכנס יין יצא סוד", pretty sure it exists in Greek too
In fact, the original version was Greek.
The ancients attributed this dictum to the 7th century BC poet Alceus ('Αλκαίος), who paired "Wine, dear boy, and truth" (οἶνος, ὦ φίλε παῖ, καὶ ἀλήθεια).
| | | | | Please stay on point | Mar 5, 2012 |
Dear all,
Let me remind you of forum rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/4#4 and ask you to please stick to the topic as introduced:
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Let me first clarify: should I for example, who normally translate from say, Spanish into English, take on a job from English into Spanish and then post a question(s) on KudoZ, relying on the goodwill and time of my colleagues to help me with my translation?
I’m sure this topic must have been covered elsewhere, yet I cannot find it. I’ve seen discussions on whether non-native speakers should ANSWER KudoZ questions but not on whether they should ASK them.
Every now and then I try and help colleagues by answering KudoZ questions. However, it doesn’t take long before I become frustrated by the number of questions posted by people translating into their non-native language and I then ask myself whether I’m simply supporting bad translation practices and give up answering. A question was posted today with a proposed translation that showed the poster was incapable of rendering a French legal document into coherent English, let alone ‘legalese’. Is anyone else bothered by this and do we think that a valuable tool is being lost because other translators are walking away from KudoZ, equally disheartened?
Thanks!
Lucia
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:22
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
+ ...
ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | Genuinely baffled | Mar 5, 2012 |
Christine, you have said:
Christine Andersen wrote:
There never has been and never will be a definitive 'correct' version of English
and yet the first line of your profile reads:
"I only translate into my native language, UK English, because I want my texts to be 100% correct."
What do you mean??
I don't think any of us have made any serious claim that there is ‘a definitive correct version of English’, nor have we dismissed any other 'variants' of the language (be they American, Canadian, Irish, Australian etc.). What we are disputing, however, is that 'international English' is on a par with these native forms of the language. Furthermore, I believe it would be safe to assume that you would be insulting the non-native translators we have been discussing at length in this post if you suggested to them that they speak some modern 'blend' of the language, what we are now calling ‘international English’. This is not how they see themselves, but rather as fluent speakers of English in one of many of its native forms and that is what I, and a few other colleagues here, have been trying hard to get across.
[Edited at 2012-03-05 22:59 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:22
Εβραϊκά σε Αγγλικά
| Returning to the OP with new eyes..... | Mar 5, 2012 |
The original question (and title of this thread)
"Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers?"
This could be debated ad infinitum, and the two camps are unlikely to ever reach a consensus.
What I do think is an issue is when a non-native speaker asks a question on KudoZ and another non-native speaker answers, with the total absence of a native speaker (of the target language, usually English) in sight.
...
"Globa... See more The original question (and title of this thread)
"Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers?"
This could be debated ad infinitum, and the two camps are unlikely to ever reach a consensus.
What I do think is an issue is when a non-native speaker asks a question on KudoZ and another non-native speaker answers, with the total absence of a native speaker (of the target language, usually English) in sight.
...
"Global English typically loses its basic functionality when it is employed in situations in which there are no native speakers present. One Spanish engineer described the "descent into babble" that occurs when his colleagues in Spain and France attempt to discuss complex issues via email in English.
This is confirmed by my own experience in the multinational corporate environment. I have seen English language email chains between Japanese and Thais that break down to the point where no group - neither the Japanese, the Thais, nor the Americans (who have been carbon copied) - understand the communication.
The tendency toward linguistic degeneration underlines a key limitation of any lingua franca. When native speakers of the language are not present, second-language speakers tend to modify the language at will. If I speak German with my German colleague, his native mastetry of German will keep me from taking too many liberties with his language. On the other hand, if I try to speak German with my Japanese colleague, we will eventually be speaking something that only resembles German".
Edward Trimnell (Why you need a foreign language & How to learn one).
...and as I said in my post earlier on this page, all of my clients (so far) want English (UK or US), not something that only resembles English.
[Edited at 2012-03-05 23:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| My mantra is think of the target group, target group, target group... | Mar 5, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Christine, you have said:
Christine Andersen wrote:
There never has been and never will be a definitive 'correct' version of English
and yet the first line of your profile reads:
"I only translate into my native language, UK English, because I want my texts to be 100% correct."
What do you mean??
I have my own idiolect - I like to be able to defend what I write with reference to a style guide, a reliable dictionary, a trusted colleague, some suitable authority, which may be a corpus or similar source. As a long-term ex-pat, I have to work quite hard at it too.
Over the years I have dabbled in so many languages and subject areas that I do not trust myself outside certain limits.
I was grandmother age when I started translating professionally, and although studying has been a way of life and still is, I have to admit that some of the old tricks are very deeply rooted, and this old dog doesn't find it so easy to learn new ones any more.
Over and out - I promise not to make any more contributions to this thread.
| | | | Giles Watson
Ιταλία
Local time: 04:22
Ιταλικά σε Αγγλικά
Εις μνήμην | There are plenty of "bilinguals" in Italy | Mar 6, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
You're right Kim, Italy is an easy target, but possibly unfair too as it does not make claims to have large numbers of bilingual English speakers in the same way that many northern Europe countries do.
Don't worry, Lisa. There are plenty of "bilinguals" and Italian-native translation studies graduates offering translations into English here in Italy. The main reason is that rates for IT>EN are generally considerably higher than for EN>IT.
I have no problem with this. If these translators are any good, they provide welcome competition to keep us native speakers on our toes and if they're not, we can point to their work as justification for raising our rates.
Kudoz is another kettle of fish entirely. It's pointless trying to guess why people post questions, although on occasion it can be painfully obvious , but why do you take part in Kudoz? I do it either to accumulate points in sectors that provide me with a living or because I can learn something from the process of answering the question and discussing other people's answers.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο
Local time: 03:22
Πορτογαλικά σε Αγγλικά
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ΞΕΚΙΝΗΣΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ | I'm reminded of a particularly bad experience | Mar 6, 2012 |
I’ll tell you one instance of an argument with a non-native speaker(s) that actually cost me. I was asked to translate a document into UK English. The project manager sent the document back with the news that the proofreader (evident from his/her work that he/she wasn’t a native speaker) had spent hours making changes and in view of the fact that I had made a 'serious and gross error' they were unilaterally deducting 50% from my invoice. What was the 'serious and gross error'? The use of the... See more I’ll tell you one instance of an argument with a non-native speaker(s) that actually cost me. I was asked to translate a document into UK English. The project manager sent the document back with the news that the proofreader (evident from his/her work that he/she wasn’t a native speaker) had spent hours making changes and in view of the fact that I had made a 'serious and gross error' they were unilaterally deducting 50% from my invoice. What was the 'serious and gross error'? The use of the term 'surgery' to denote a doctor's consulting room. They claimed to be astounded at my ignorance of the meaning of the term 'surgery', how could I have made such a simple error? I was accused of not being a native speaker and even of using machine translation (although I never quite followed that logic). No amount of links to dictionary definitions, to the NHS website etc would convince them that I was right. Nope, their English (the whole office's) was simply better than mine. The 50% was brought down to about 30% (from memory) but needless to say it was an ugly and stressful battle, I just had to walk away and I never worked for them again. It was the only time I’ve ever had a problem with payment, but it does illustrate what some of us have been trying to convey.
[Edited at 2012-03-06 15:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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