| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Is there a way to prevent the decline in translation rates? Thread poster: Erwin S. Fernandez
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Kaspars Melkis 
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
English to Latvian
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| translators need to redefine themselves in a changing world | Jun 15, 2021 |
I don't understand the negative attitude to translators who have degrees in their specialization instead of languages or translation. I may be biased because I was a freelance translator who got bored and decided to study pharmacy. In this journey I learned how pharmacists as a profession managed to redefine themselves from chemists who make dubious mixtures to important service providers and respectable healthcare professionals.
In some way, machine translation is like pre-packaged... See more I don't understand the negative attitude to translators who have degrees in their specialization instead of languages or translation. I may be biased because I was a freelance translator who got bored and decided to study pharmacy. In this journey I learned how pharmacists as a profession managed to redefine themselves from chemists who make dubious mixtures to important service providers and respectable healthcare professionals.
In some way, machine translation is like pre-packaged medicines. Pharmacists no longer make medicines or extemporaneous preparations as they are called by fancy name. Those days will never return. And yet, their role has become more important by doing clinical review, consulting both patients and even physicians about medicines, and providing vaccinations.
The world has changed and translators have been marginalized for various reasons. Some have found a niche but that cannot work for everyone in this industry. As a profession we need to redefine what is the role of a translator. If we don't do this, most translators will remain MT editors for little pay.
My vision is that translators are specialists in their respective fields who are given a task to facilitate communication to the target audience in a different country and language. Transforming the words from one language into another, which is the only thing that presumably MT can do, is a small part of this process. Evaluating and validating this output to ensure that it is appropriate to the target audience and corresponds to the legal framework, is more important part of translation. We need to take more active role in consulting clients and recommending better choices how to adapt the message to achieve the intended results. To be able to do this, a specialist knowledge of industry is required.
No one is going to give us this role unless we actively ask for it. Nevertheless, there is a need for professional translators more than ever. The dream that the world is moving towards a single global culture is over. Tensions between countries are increasing, people are getting angry for little reason. This shows that adaptation of the tone and cultural sensitivities cannot be neglected.
When the clients see the value we are providing, negotiations about rates will be much easier. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 03:05
English to Arabic
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| Give them anything except the thing they need, the thing that can fix their problems! | Jun 16, 2021 |
A song from childhood not remembering its lyrics correctly, but it was on stalling and steering into vicious circles, in the general meaning of:
The grocer wants berries, but the berries are at the fellah's. The fellah wants a cow, and the cow wants sugar. The sugar is at the grocer, but the grocer is no bestower.
Our gameplay strategy for today's match is:
1. Embrace outsiders from all other professions into this one.
2. Alienate the only authentic c... See more A song from childhood not remembering its lyrics correctly, but it was on stalling and steering into vicious circles, in the general meaning of:
The grocer wants berries, but the berries are at the fellah's. The fellah wants a cow, and the cow wants sugar. The sugar is at the grocer, but the grocer is no bestower.
Our gameplay strategy for today's match is:
1. Embrace outsiders from all other professions into this one.
2. Alienate the only authentic craftsmen of the profession.
3. Let outsiders know they don't need any degree whatsoever, in language or otherwise.
4. Let those craftsmen know they need a qualification (the more time- and money-consuming the better) for each and every domain they wish to handle.
5. Make it crystal clear to those craftsmen that neither their original language-degree nor their subsequent domain-oriented qualifications are any guarantee for paid work.
6. End everyone, craftsmen as well as outsiders, and bring forward the new master, the Machine.
The Machine needs huge, cheap content; flawless or not is no concern. Huge & Cheap.
Those who are trained in language know the text's worth, those who aren't don't.
Deploy outsiders, bench craftsmen, terminate profession, and release product.
Divide and conquer.
After that it doesn't really matter how innocent craftsmen will survive, not in the least how offender outsiders will, nor the global damages the imperfect product can cause. What matters is the Bs of Ds (billions of dollars) that can be wringed from ending this profession ASAP.
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Fellow craftsmen, the ones already with language-degrees I mean:
Do NOT waste time, energy or money on getting more qualifications for the mere purpose of working in translation.
Do NOT accept tasks/projects/texts from outsiders serving as outsourcers/brokers.
Do NOT help Machine Translation efforts.
Do NOT accept low rates that can't give you the luxurious life you deserve as university graduates and authentic craftsmen.
Do NOT accept short deadlines that can harm your health and welfare.
Do NOT accept bad payment terms that can render you helpless.
Do NOT provide free services.
Do NOT entertain shady, unloyal, impolite enterprises.
The list of Don'ts can go on way further, but the basic rule is:
If you are going to invest your life in Translation, Translation must be rewarding, on all levels; otherwise, leave, and invest it in its entirety somewhere else.
As for outsiders:
Don't be surprised if someday you become victims of the same strategy. You were the ones who left the places where you rightfully belong.
Who knows? Maybe with the shortage you're causing in your professions, we might see official calls for admissions with a minimum or no qualification. I, for one, can see myself handling cases before courts for pharmacists driven out of job (https://www.studentloanplanner.com/pharmacist-job-outlook-growth/). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 18:05
Greek to English
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| "AI" is a gigantic database, it doesn't make "decisions" | Jun 21, 2021 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
AI cannot make the kind of decisions this work calls for.
AI is not "AI". It doesn't make decisions. It's "big data", a gigantic database with some simple algorithms that look like geniuses when the dataset is huge enough. That's why the errors the first translators entered in GoogleTrans are still there.
That's why GoogleTrans TRANSLATES DIFFERENTLY THE SAME SENTENCE WHEN IT'S IN ALL CAPS (at least in Greek) - it doesn't have enough sentences in all caps in the dataset
From English into Greek, all sentences in lower caps need minor editing, all in upper caps (especially the longer ones) need to be re-written, every word.
Most of the so-called "AI" services of Silicon Valley are the largest intellectual property theft in history, because we allowed it. We' re not the only ones affected. Jaron Lanier reported that their own "real world" survey discovered less than 100 musicians with living income in the entire USA, while before Silicon Valley they were more than 150,000.
Modern technology is the dilemma between "just a few excellent meals" and "millions of cans of mediocre soup".
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Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Don't listen to those in here that are trying to convince you they're doing so spectacularly well without almost 24/7 work; they have income from other sources as well or their arrangements are quite beneficial for online unreported income.
That's quite an accusation. Again, where is your evidence?
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
......
Most of the so-called "AI" services of Silicon Valley are the largest intellectual property theft in history, because we allowed it. .....
Well said ! But it isn't that we "allowed" it; we simply didn't realise that is was happening until it was too late.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Marginalised | Jun 22, 2021 |
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
The world has changed and translators have been marginalized for various reasons....
In my case, the decline in translation rates has come about because some (Italian) agencies have been hiring people who charge less than what I was charging 10 years ago.
I have been marginalised by two particular agencies that used to give me lots of work.
Over a period of about ten years I never increased my rate to them, but over the same period they were able to recruit other translators who charged less.
One of them tried to persuade me to reduce my rate; I refused, telling them that after ten years, I was actually thinking of *increasing* my rate.
Both of these agencies have simply stopped sending me work - except when they can't find anyone else or they have a particularly challenging text that they know I can handle better than the cheap translators.
I don't really care because I have enough translating work from other Italian agencies. I'm holding firm and not reducing my rate.
But that's my explanation of why there has been a decline.
How to prevent it? Don't lower your rate - even if it means sacrificing something.
[Edited at 2021-06-22 09:31 GMT]
| | | | | I still wonder ... | Jun 22, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote: Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
......
Most of the so-called "AI" services of Silicon Valley are the largest intellectual property theft in history, because we allowed it. .....
Well said ! But it isn't that we "allowed" it; we simply didn't realise that is was happening until it was too late.
... whether that "TM Town" hype a couple of years ago has anything to do with this "AI" tendencies. And I noticed a company advertising here on proz, who offered to buy your TMs. You may draw your own conclusions, what I specifically mean by that in the end (although I'm not a friend of conspiracy theories).
| | | | | rates vs. income | Jun 22, 2021 |
Obviously rates have come down, because translation is much, much easier than it used to be with all the resources available.
Only for those unable to grasp the benefits of digitalisation will this mean a decline in income however.
So, if you want a viable future, either as an individual or company, you have to pass on the benefits of an online world. That means lower rates more than compensated by higher productivity, and thus higher income.
Otherwise, the world... See more Obviously rates have come down, because translation is much, much easier than it used to be with all the resources available.
Only for those unable to grasp the benefits of digitalisation will this mean a decline in income however.
So, if you want a viable future, either as an individual or company, you have to pass on the benefits of an online world. That means lower rates more than compensated by higher productivity, and thus higher income.
Otherwise, the world will move on without you. ▲ Collapse
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| sauce for the goose | Jun 22, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote: Kaspars Melkis wrote:
The world has changed and translators have been marginalized for various reasons.... In my case, the decline in translation rates has come about because some (Italian) agencies have been hiring people who charge less than what I was charging 10 years ago. I have been marginalised by two particular agencies that used to give me lots of work. Over a period of about ten years I never increased my rate to them, but over the same period they were able to recruit other translators who charged less. One of them tried to persuade me to reduce my rate; I refused, telling them that after ten years, I was actually thinking of *increasing* my rate. Both of these agencies have simply stopped sending me work - except when they can't find anyone else or they have a particularly challenging text that they know I can handle better than the cheap translators. I don't really care because I have enough translating work from other Italian agencies. I'm holding firm and not reducing my rate. But that's my explanation of why there has been a decline. How to prevent it? Don't lower your rate - even if it means sacrificing something. [Edited at 2021-06-22 09:31 GMT]
That's all very noble Tom, but I don't expect to see you down at your local IT shop insisting you pay the same for a 23" monitor or whatever that you would have paid 20 years ago!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Richard Purdom wrote:
That's all very noble Tom, but I don't expect to see you down at your local IT shop insisting you pay the same for a 23" monitor or whatever that you would have paid 20 years ago!
Yes, Richard; I would expect to pay more. I think you missed my point.
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
English to Latvian
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| It is not easier, it is different and actually harder than before | Jun 22, 2021 |
Richard Purdom wrote:
Obviously rates have come down, because translation is much, much easier than it used to be with all the resources available.
Only for those unable to grasp the benefits of digitalisation will this mean a decline in income however.
So, if you want a viable future, either as an individual or company, you have to pass on the benefits of an online world. That means lower rates more than compensated by higher productivity, and thus higher income.
Otherwise, the world will move on without you.
The demands by clients are much higher now. There more legal requirements, more expectations to follow legacy texts and references. CAT tools do not provide compliance with those sources. They only give you previously translated version while references continue to evolve and will be different from your TM. One needs to have a knowledge close to a specialist level to successfully navigate this.
The only reason for CAT tools is to make it easier to deal with complicated formatting. Even that is only because companies try to pay less to translators than to text layout specialists.
At least that's how it is in the sector of my specialization.
What is easier now is spellcheck, proofreading etc. These skills have little added value now.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 03:05
English to Arabic
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| If I so may! | Jun 22, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote: Richard Purdom wrote:
That's all very noble Tom, but I don't expect to see you down at your local IT shop insisting you pay the same for a 23" monitor or whatever that you would have paid 20 years ago! Yes, Richard; I would expect to pay more. I think you missed my point.
The intellectual services comprising translation are as fresh as they were 20 years ago, as opposed to the obsolete functionality of that 23-incher.
Factoring in object vs. mentality, object usually depreciates (with exceptions on Precious & Rare; none of which apply to that incher, of course) whereas mentality appreciates (again, with exceptions).
Lastly, object has no life expenses to cover, no inflation to work around, no emergencies to face, etc.
Richard Purdom wrote:
Obviously rates have come down, because translation is much, much easier than it used to be with all the resources available.
Only for those unable to grasp the benefits of digitalisation will this mean a decline in income however.
So, if you want a viable future, either as an individual or company, you have to pass on the benefits of an online world. That means lower rates more than compensated by higher productivity, and thus higher income.
Otherwise, the world will move on without you.
There are way better techs in locating, mining, refining, shaping and sale of precious metals, making those processes literally a walk in the park compared to how they used to be only 100 years ago; why, then, is no one witnessing a "passing-on of the benefits of a tech world", nor "lowered rates due to much, much higher & easier productivity" in that field?
The same applies to a myriad of other domains. If a surgeon masters a new surgical tech, they don't charge less because that tech reduced time, increased productivity and boosted precision, they actually charge more because they invested part of their life mastering that new tech in order for it to actually 'reduce', 'increase' and 'boost'.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| This is crazy | Jun 23, 2021 |
Richard Purdom wrote:
Obviously rates have come down, because translation is much, much easier than it used to be with all the resources available.
Only for those unable to grasp the benefits of digitalisation will this mean a decline in income however.
So, if you want a viable future, either as an individual or company, you have to pass on the benefits of an online world. That means lower rates more than compensated by higher productivity, and thus higher income.
Otherwise, the world will move on without you.
No business makes efficiency savings as a way to reduce what they charge to customers. Otherwise why bother making efficiency savings at all? For the benefit of others?
What I charge for is the translation.
How efficiently I do it, and what tools I use, are my business and nobody else's: internal matters.
Crazy thinking there, Richard.
[Edited at 2021-06-23 10:43 GMT]
| | | | | Reality check | Jun 23, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote:
No business makes efficiency savings as a way to reduce what they charge to customers. Otherwise why bother making efficiency savings at all? For the benefit of others?
I agree with you, Tom. But with the decrease in rates, this is exactly what most translators are doing. And what agencies are doing with PEMT. It makes sense for agencies, because they are actually not the people doing the translation and they can even give volume discounts, but we are forced to work a lot more to sustain our income. I tried to explain this to an agency (25th in the world, USD62 millions in revenue) trying to "force" PEMT on me. Why would I work a lot more to earn the same? They were pushing it on the basis of efficiency. But this makes sense for us only if we maintain the same rate. Unfortunately, the competition is enormous and if you don;t do it, you will be replaced swiftly. It's all about maximising your profits, but we don't have much negotiating power because of the fierce competition. Same for the agencies. It's all down to price.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Not ours-theirs | Jun 23, 2021 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
.....It's all about maximising your profits....
Yes- maximising THEIR profits by getting us to work for less. No thanks.
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