| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Pitiful-rate job offers on Proz Thread poster: Simon Bruni
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| The "schnorrer" | Jan 29, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why do you think these ever cheaper jobs keep being posted here?
This character comes from the Jewish folklore: the Schnorrer.
One joke about it goes like this:
A man walks into a tailor's shop and asks:
"How much would you charge me for a pair of trousers?"
"$60."
"Well, then I'll pay you $30."
They quibble for a while, and the tailor finally says he'll do it for $40, to which the schnorrer replies:
"Then I'll pay ou $20!"
They quibble again, and finally, the tailor gives up, saying:
"Listen, pal, today is my only daughter's 15th birthday, so I'm in a very good mood that I wouldn't want to spoil. On this special occasion, I'll do it for free."
This makes the man lighten up, smile, and say:
"Then I want two of'em!"
Nobody would offer, say, 20¢/word, and expect a vendor to tell them it's too much, that they can do it for half that rate. So these 5¢ jobs sort of expect getting 10¢ bids or higher, hoping that some good translator on a low tide might ask for only 8-9¢.
Those expecting decent work at despicably low rates are simply stupid.
[Edited at 2012-01-29 15:40 GMT]
| | | | | the platform ... | Jan 29, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote:
As long as there are translators accepting low-paid jobs, there will be outsourcers who offer low-paid jobs, it's as plain as that.
Online platforms where translation jobs are posted (ProZ but also LinkedIn, and many other small jobs platforms) are not responsible for this.
Cheers,
Anne
... distributes these job offers around the globe. It contributes in some way, don't you think?
You can say that the platform is not responsible for the rates an outsourcer posts but it gives him/her the opportunity to do so. And if they want, they can post a job for USD 0.005/word.
Where does the platform's "responsibility" start?
As long as there are platforms like these that allow low-paid jobs to be posted, there will be outsourcers who offer low-paid jobs, it's as plain as that.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-01-29 16:05 GMT]
| | | | | Let's just agree to disagree | Jan 29, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... distributes these job offers around the globe. It contributes in some way, don't you think?
You can say that the platform is not responsible for the rates an outsourcer posts but it gives him/her the opportunity to do so. And if they want, they can post a job for USD 0.005/word if they want.
Where does the platform's "responsibility" start?
As long as there are platforms like these that allow low-paid jobs to be posted, there will be outsourcers who offer low-paid jobs, it's as plain as that.
Bernhard
Do you really tink that if all platforms were killed off, outsourcers willing to pay 0.02 cents/word would not find another way of posting their low-rated job offers to translators more than willing to work for 0.02 cents /word? We're in 2012, of course they would.
You want to shoot the messenger, that's fine. Let's just agree to disagree
Have a good Sunday!
Anne
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:05
Hebrew to English
| I think......... | Jan 29, 2012 |
....both sides have a point.
If such jobs were forbidden to be posted here they could just be posted elsewhere.
However, Bernhard has a point too. The question really comes down to whether you think a translator can call themselves professional if they charge 0.02USD per word. (Personally I think this is like a student rate). Anyway, if this site is going to market itself as the forerunner of the lot for language professionals, then it is reasonable to que... See more ....both sides have a point.
If such jobs were forbidden to be posted here they could just be posted elsewhere.
However, Bernhard has a point too. The question really comes down to whether you think a translator can call themselves professional if they charge 0.02USD per word. (Personally I think this is like a student rate). Anyway, if this site is going to market itself as the forerunner of the lot for language professionals, then it is reasonable to question the posting of jobs which target an unprofessional sector of the translation community.
I see nothing wrong with questioning the incongruity between this site's professional ambitions and unprofessional practices found within. ▲ Collapse
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Anne Diamantidis wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... distributes these job offers around the globe. It contributes in some way, don't you think?
You can say that the platform is not responsible for the rates an outsourcer posts but it gives him/her the opportunity to do so. And if they want, they can post a job for USD 0.005/word if they want.
Where does the platform's "responsibility" start?
As long as there are platforms like these that allow low-paid jobs to be posted, there will be outsourcers who offer low-paid jobs, it's as plain as that.
Bernhard
Do you really tink that if all platforms were killed off, outsourcers willing to pay 0.02 cents/word would not find another way of posting their low-rated job offers to translators more than willing to work for 0.02 cents /word? We're in 2012, of course they would. You want to shoot the messenger, that's fine. Let's just agree to disagree Have a good Sunday! Anne
I am saying that online platforms should be subject to certain rules in all countries.
Or are you suggesting it would be okay for a sweat shop to advertise its jobs without ever incurring any consequences?
And I am also saying it's not just the translators who are responsible for ongoing low-paid job offers.
The direction the job board at Proz.com has taken in recent years is, IMHO, not in line with the principles on which this site was founded, namely, to be of service to all translators. And I believe Proz.com shares responsibility for this development. And just because this is what any and all job sites might be doing doesn't excuse the practice.
I realize these are my opinions, and I am not offended if you disagree.
Sincerely,
Bernhard
| | | | | Different perspectives | Jan 29, 2012 |
Hi Bernhard,
I think we disagree because we are not talking about the same thing or rather not from the same perspective. I am not talking about ProZ.com specifically, it's just one of many places on the Internet where translation jobs are being posted - there are translation specific platforms, where ProZ.com belongs, there are job boards (in general, industries-wide), and there are all the social networking sites like LinkedIn, Xing, Viadeo, Facebook, Twitter, Google+, and so fort... See more Hi Bernhard,
I think we disagree because we are not talking about the same thing or rather not from the same perspective. I am not talking about ProZ.com specifically, it's just one of many places on the Internet where translation jobs are being posted - there are translation specific platforms, where ProZ.com belongs, there are job boards (in general, industries-wide), and there are all the social networking sites like LinkedIn, Xing, Viadeo, Facebook, Twitter, Google+, and so forth and so on.
Having this in mind, if an outsourcer posts a job on their Facebook wall (and the number of agencies using Social Media to call for translators and post jobs is increasing) for 0.02 cents/words, Facebook is in no way responsible for this. Same applies for Twitter or LinkedIn groups.
Translation-specific platforms are now far from being the only players, that's my point. I don't know if the responsibility should be the same for jobs posted on Facebook and jobs posted on ProZ.com - I really don't know. I mean, if Facebook is not considered responsible for those, then why should ProZ.com be? You see what I mean? Again, I do not have any answer to that question, but in the era of Web 2.0 and social Web, I think it's a good one.
After all it's the Web and if ProZ.com forbids posting such jobs (which is hardly doable given the complexity of local markets and local laws), those outsourcers will just go to Facebook, Linkedin, etc. to post their jobs, where they will still be accepted by translators willing to work for that price.
Just a broader perspective, but again, IMO the real issue here is translator's education (I know it's more complicated than that). If no one accepts 0.02€ jobs anymore, then those jobs will stop existing at all, everywhere on the Web...
Cheers!
Anne
[Edited at 2012-01-29 16:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It sounds wonderful, but... | Jan 29, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Earn for what? Cleaning toilets? Or can you actually make more money for that in your country?
Hmmm... I wouldn't know, as I have never tried But let me just mention another aspect, just to give you an idea of what we're talking about: in the same country, debutant teachers - qualified, too - earn around the equivalent of 166 Euros/month. Let me know how much can a teacher earn in other countries. Once I came across a blog whose owner and her husband were teachers in England and could afford to raise 6 kids! I gapped, mesmerized: imagine raising 6 kids if both of you earn around 400 Euros/month!
Fair to whom? To you or the translation agency who makes a killing off your hard work? To the other translators who won't compromise their hard work for cheap pay?
Related to agencies, I wouldn't know. There are some local agencies that will hear my point of view, make a note of it and try to offer me a fair deal. Most of them, however, will of course get the lion's share, generously supported by the deals they previously made with notary publics (the walking danger around here, heh).
As for other translators who won't accept such shameful rates, we've been told about them since we started studying Translation in university. We've been advised not to submit to the general opinion and to keep our professional pride. Once out of university I soon discovered that keeping my professional pride meant starving.
But then again, I come from a country where the Ministry of Justice grants translator and interpreter certifications without an exam, based only on their HIGH SCHOOL studies (i.e. if they graduated from a bilingual high school). On the other hand, they do not certify people who underwent a specialised MA (like I did) - these are free to go and take one exam for EACH SPECIALIZATION in a certain language combination, for a "modest" fee of around 100 Euros.
Sorry, but a job for EUR 0.02/word posted on an American site is not a fair deal. very far from it. It's an extreme insult.
I think I should be having in mind relocating to America, then?
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Anne Diamantidis wrote:
...
Having this in mind, if an outsourcer posts a job on their Facebook wall (and the number of agencies using facebook for that purpose is increasing) for 0.02 cents/words, Facebook is in no way responsible for this. Same applies for Twitter or LinkedIn groups.
... maybe they should be responsible. I am not saying that's an easy thing to police.
I agree with your point to educate translators. But it alone will not suffice to change a trend.
I am not saying there aren't any better jobs out there. But it is certainly harder to find them. And I know that Proz.com says that the good jobs are those offered by clients finding you in the directory. Everybody will have their own experience with that.
Greetings,
Bernhard
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| Houston, ... | Jan 29, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote: Hi Bernhard, I think we disagree because we are not talking about the same thing or rather not from the same perspective. I am not talking about ProZ.com specifically, it's just one of many places on the Internet where translation jobs are being posted - there are translation specific platforms, where ProZ.com belongs, there are job boards (in general, industries-wide), and there are all the social networking sites like LinkedIn, Xing, Viadeo, Facebook, Twitter, Google+, and so forth and so on. Having this in mind, if an outsourcer posts a job on their Facebook wall (and the number of agencies using Social Media to call for translators and post jobs is increasing) for 0.02 cents/words, Facebook is in no way responsible for this. Same applies for Twitter or LinkedIn groups. Translation-specific platforms are now far from being the only players, that's my point. I don't know if the responsibility should be the same for jobs posted on Facebook and jobs posted on ProZ.com - I really don't know. I mean, if Facebook is not considered responsible for those, then why should ProZ.com be? You see what I mean? Again, I do not have any answer to that question, but in the era of Web 2.0 and social Web, I think it's a good one. After all it's the Web and if ProZ.com forbids posting such jobs (which is hardly doable given the complexity of local markets and local laws), those outsourcers will just go to Facebook, Linkedin, etc. to post their jobs, where they will still be accepted by translators willing to work for that price. Just a broader perspective, but again, IMO the real issue here is translator's education (I know it's more complicated than that). If no one accepts 0.02€ jobs anymore, then those jobs will stop existing at all, everywhere on the Web... Cheers! Anne [Edited at 2012-01-29 16:35 GMT]
Hi Anne,
I read your post and I have the following question:
Why do you think you can compare Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. with proz.com?
I mean
1) As far as I' concerned proz.com is for people in the translation industry
2) As far as I'm concerned proz.com promotes its site as:
ProZ.com's mission is to provide tools and opportunities that translators, translation companies, and others in the language industry can use to:
network,
expand their businesses,
improve their work,
experience added enjoyment in their professional endeavors.
Services
Serving the world's largest community of translators, ProZ.com delivers a comprehensive network of essential services, resources and experiences that enhance the lives of its members.
ProZ.com enables language professionals to:
....
3) Facebook and Linkedin are social networks for everybody (plumbers, gamblers, cheerleaders, children, cats, dogs etc.) and these sites are free (at least their main functions are free).
I don't think we should compare social network sites with proz.com.
If we do or others do compare, then "Houston, we have a problem."
A pretty huge one ...
Best regards,
Katalin
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 06:05
Italian to English
In memoriam
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am saying that online platforms should be subject to certain rules in all countries.
AFAIK, web sites are already subject to the laws of their country of registration, most of which energetically enforce legislation to foster competition.
Or are you suggesting it would be okay for a sweat shop to advertise its jobs without ever incurring any consequences?
Are you suggesting that workers whose physical presence is required, often under duress, at a specific workplace are comparable to translators who can in practice work with clients from anywhere there is internet access?
Translators can choose to ignore badly paid jobs because there are always other clients available. Sweat shop operatives go to work because they have no other option.
| | | | | you are entitled to your fair share ... | Jan 29, 2012 |
Iulia Dromereschi wrote: ... There are some local agencies that will hear my point of view, make a note of it and try to offer me a fair deal. Most of them, however, will of course get the lion's share, ... As for other translators who won't accept such shameful rates, we've been told about them since we started studying Translation in university. We've been advised not to submit to the general opinion and to keep our professional pride. Once out of university I soon discovered that keeping my professional pride meant starving. ... I think I should be having in mind relocating to America, then?
Hi Iulia,
It is obvious you are well educated and when it comes to translations, I am sure you do a great job. Since you translate from French to Romanian, I assume that French companies belong to your clients. They would certainly have no business paying you EUR 0,02/word.
As a matter of fact, it shouldn't matter where you live. A colleague once wrote if she were to move from the US to Romania, would she then supply her work for less money to her established clients? No. You are entitled to a fair rate on this international market. You should not have to move to another country to get it. I understand it is very hard where you are to get that fair share but that's why I keep contributing to this subject. If rates won't go up, we all suffer. Raising awareness is a good thing.
All the best,
Bernhard
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That's a good question - and I'm not comparing ProZ.com with social networking websites (to some extent, one may say that ProZ.com is a social networking website for translators, but that's not the point) - you are right though, they're not quite comparable.
No, what I'm saying is actually stating a fact, namely that social networking sites are increasingly used by outsourcers (and end clients for that matter) to ca... See more That's a good question - and I'm not comparing ProZ.com with social networking websites (to some extent, one may say that ProZ.com is a social networking website for translators, but that's not the point) - you are right though, they're not quite comparable.
No, what I'm saying is actually stating a fact, namely that social networking sites are increasingly used by outsourcers (and end clients for that matter) to call for translators and post translation jobs. I spend hours every day on these sites and everyday I see more and more jobs being posted there. Which is why I wrote that translation specific portals are not the only players anymore - social networking sites are also being used in that way, even though they have nothing to do with the translation industry in particular as you rightly point out.
I have no opinion on that trend. I don't know if it's bad or good but to be honest, as an agency, I do use LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook regularly too when I need a translator since those sites allow a broad reach through virtual mouth-to-ear (contacts of contacts of contacts - "hey, I know someone who is specialized in that field") and there are translators out there who are actually not on ProZ.com.
Again, in no way am I comparing proZ with social networking sites
I hope this clarified my post above?
Greetings!
Anne ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson wrote:
AFAIK, web sites are already subject to the laws of their country of registration, most of which energetically enforce legislation to foster competition.
What does that mean, foster competition? What kind of competition is this? Whose competing, with whom? The cheaper you are, the more jobs you get???
Giles Watson wrote:
Translators can choose to ignore badly paid jobs because there are always other clients available. Sweat shop operatives go to work because they have no other option.
Many don't ignore them because they rather sit in front of a computer than do something less dignified or indeed do not find other clients. But they are still being exploited.
[Edited at 2012-01-29 18:21 GMT]
| | | | | Expectations... | Jan 29, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote: That's a good question - and I'm not comparing ProZ.com with social networking websites (to some extent, one may say that ProZ.com is a social networking website for translators, but that's not the point ) - you are right though, they're not quite comparable. No, what I'm saying is actually stating a fact, namely that social networking sites are increasingly used by outsourcers (and end clients for that matter) to call for translators and post translation jobs. I spend hours every day on these sites and everyday I see more and more jobs being posted there. Which is why I wrote that translation specific portals are not the only players anymore - social networking sites are also being used in that way, even though they have nothing to do with the translation industry in particular as you rightly point out. I have no opinion on that trend. I don't know if it's bad or good but to be honest, as an agency, I do use LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook regularly too when I need a translator since those sites allow a broad reach through virtual mouth-to-ear (contacts of contacts of contacts - "hey, I know someone who is specialized in that field") and there are translators out there who are actually not on ProZ.com. Again, in no way am I comparing proZ with social networking sites I hope this clarified my post above? Greetings! Anne
Anne, thanks for the clarification.
Yes, I agree the Internet is full of low rate translators. Low quality agencies looking for "best rate" (most of the time low quality) translators will either way find their best rate "translators". What I was referring to that this is a site for translators/translation agencies, it says "for professionals in the translation industry". There are members who are paying for this service, so I assume we can expect that our interest should be taken into account. Promoting low rates are not good even for translation agencies focusing on quality.
Best regards,
Katalin
[Edited at 2012-01-29 17:33 GMT]
| | | | | A global view | Jan 29, 2012 |
On another thread, yesterday, our colleague Eleftherios commented that while freelancers always mention the advantage that “our office is at our home”, the reality is that we shoulder the disadvantage of “living at our office”. That is a shrewd observation, but one that needs an addition: “I am my own office, and said office is located whenever I am”. Based on that principle, early on January, I packed my things, my portable PC and a couple of essential dictionaries, and flew to Arge... See more On another thread, yesterday, our colleague Eleftherios commented that while freelancers always mention the advantage that “our office is at our home”, the reality is that we shoulder the disadvantage of “living at our office”. That is a shrewd observation, but one that needs an addition: “I am my own office, and said office is located whenever I am”. Based on that principle, early on January, I packed my things, my portable PC and a couple of essential dictionaries, and flew to Argentina, my native country, where I am staying until mid-February.
Translation in Argentina is a well-developed profession, at least re the translators ‘education. Many universities and post-secondary institutions have 4-year programs in T&I. Just one of the associations of sworn translators, the CTPBA, the Colegio de Traductores de la Provincia de Buenos Aires, has almost as many members as ATA’s total membership (associate and active/certified members). And most of them work on the English-Spanish pair. In that pair, whatever happens in Argentina affects us all, wherever we are based.
For many political/economic reasons, starting around 2001, when Argentina left the parity peso-dollar and overnight the dollar conversion changed from 1 peso to 3 pesos, without immediately affecting the domestic prices, the Argentine translation agencies, and there are many of them, became sub agencies of US and Europe translation agencies, charging them arate that I consider unacceptable for me. Today, in Argentina, 3 cents per word or lower are normal rates rather than the exception. And, no, the cost of living is not much lower than in the US. In 2006, when I attended to the ProZ Conference in Buenos Aires, Argentina was a dirt cheap country. This is no longer true, I tell you from Argentina.
Therefore, the majority of the Argentine professional translators are offered those rates, both from Argentine agencies, really sub agencies of foreign agencies, and from most of the translation portals, including ProZ. They know no better and take those values as representatives of the translation market. They must be educated.
Established translators are coming to bat. Groups at Facebook and other social media venues are appearing to set the issue straight. A couple of years ago, AIPTI (Asociación Internacional de Profesionales de la Traducción e Interpretación, an Argentine association but with an international scope, of which many Prozians are members) was founded. I must declare that I am not a member, but I would and will collaborate with them).
In the next couple of weeks, AIPTI is sponsoring roundtables in Buenos Aires and Rosario, one of largest cities in the country, on how to conduct business in the US, what to expect, what are rates that can be obtained, how to let you be known in that market. I am an “invited guest”, and I am joined by Argentine translators that work exclusively in that market (or in the European market), rejecting the domestic rates and those offered in the portal.
In this context, ProZ, big as it is, is just a grain of sand in the beach. While I understand the concern of some Prozians that they may think that are “accomplices” in the lowering of the standards (and compensation) by being members of ProZ or other translation portals, I do not see how this can be avoided. I prefer to concentrate my efforts on showing what the translators are leaving on the negotiation table, not on what is or is not “fair”, an elusive concept in a global market.
Greetings to all from Rosario, Argentina,
Luis ▲ Collapse
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