| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | References for rates on the market - another attempt to lower rates by an agency Thread poster: Geneviève Granger
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Geneviève Granger 
Germany
Local time: 16:04
Member (2006)
German to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Translators, rebel now! | Jul 20, 2022 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Sorry you go through all that. I have had to learn for myself that nowadays it's all about the volume.
Since most often, I can only charge much less than what I charged 20 years ago, I can really only survive as a translator with large volume projects. Of course, I can't go below a certain point. But as long a voluminous project pays me more than a ridiculous job I could work somewhere, I survive. Survive that is. Not really prosper. For that, I started writing. Might as well. Wish me luck. Take care.;-)
I am also sorry to hear that about you.
As far a I am concerned, everything in my life has become more expensive (rent, food, public transports, ...) while clients keep coming back to ask me to reduce my rates. In the last months, my expenses have become higher than my income, and the meager savings I made in the past (actually for my pension) is melting at a fast pace. Moreover, my eyesight have gone down recently and the nice sum of 1500€ for new glasses will add to the problem this summer.
I cannot imagine that enough other translators are not affected by the situation, that is to have to work more to finally lead a much more modest life than when they begun. Yet I cannot state that translators offer more resistance to pressure on rates neither that they feel able to ask for a raise.
Agencies make pressure telling you that their other translators are cheaper and accept to do MTPE at lower rates. That is however not always the feeling I get from translators forums, yet I can image that enough providers either give in fearing to lose completely their business or have a lower work ethic than I do.
I actually lost some regular job (from a company gobbled up by the group mentioned in this discussion) because I refused switching to MTPE at lower rates. Yet, I still receive the group mails addressed to all the translator team where the PM complains about things I would never do and never did in the past. But money prevails and they still choose to work with the cheap rather that the conscientious.
I contacted an agency recently and they came back to me telling me that their regular translators would charge only half of my rate(!). What do those translators live from? Do they need the money at all or is that just occupational therapy or pocket money to round up the household?
I have been trying recently to diversify my services, like offering SEO creation and subtitling, but that has not brought much work up to now.
Good luck with your writing.
| | | | Jean Lachaud
United States
Local time: 10:04
English to French
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| You answered your own question. | Jul 20, 2022 |
Geneviève Granger wrote:
What do those translators live from? Do they need the money at all or is that just occupational therapy or pocket money to round up the household?
J L
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 16:04
English to French
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Geneviève Granger wrote:
I cannot imagine that enough other translators are not affected by the situation, that is to have to work more to finally lead a much more modest life than when they begun. Yet I cannot state that translators offer more resistance to pressure on rates neither that they feel able to ask for a raise.What do those translators live from? Do they need the money at all or is that just occupational therapy or pocket money to round up the household?
Most newbies young and old accept low rates and think their situation will improve some day. They don t seem to understand that rates are falling at a rapid pace and that this trend will gain momentum due to ever improving MT quality.
So I see a lot of newbies young and old who think it s a great idea to join the translation market. But I also see a lot of graduated translators with 7 or more years of experience who have already left the market. Some have paid a very high tuition for their curriculum in translation and some even have a PhD.
| | | | Kirk Jackson
Local time: 10:04
Member (2005)
French to English
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| We are all in the same boat... | Jul 20, 2022 |
Hey Geneviève,
I'm sure most everyone has experienced the same issues as you (lower rates, tighter deadlines, more unnecessary corporate "paperwork", portals galore, etc.). I remember when translation used to be a profession, but currently I'm not so sure we can make the same claim. Current industry practices seem more suited for fast-food workers (e.g. flipping burgers at McDonalds) or day laborers, NOT professionals.
I would love to see translators demand that our i... See more Hey Geneviève,
I'm sure most everyone has experienced the same issues as you (lower rates, tighter deadlines, more unnecessary corporate "paperwork", portals galore, etc.). I remember when translation used to be a profession, but currently I'm not so sure we can make the same claim. Current industry practices seem more suited for fast-food workers (e.g. flipping burgers at McDonalds) or day laborers, NOT professionals.
I would love to see translators demand that our industry once again become a profession, where the focus is QUALITY, practices are professional / engaged, and translators (along with good project managers) are properly remunerated.
You said "Translators, rebel now!" ... a translator r3VOLution sounds good to me.
Cheers and be well ~ ▲ Collapse
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David GAY
Local time: 16:04
English to French
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| "Translators, rebel now!" | Jul 21, 2022 |
I really don t think it s going to work. The said company has not only taken over numerous small and medium sized companies, but also the 3 biggest LSPs in legal and financial translation in France and in Luxembourg. So it is now what is called a monopsony which can dictate its prices to its suppliers. I m quite surprised these megamergers have been authorised by competition authorities. There is clearly abuse of market power. Raising one s voice is completely useless given the power imbalance... See more I really don t think it s going to work. The said company has not only taken over numerous small and medium sized companies, but also the 3 biggest LSPs in legal and financial translation in France and in Luxembourg. So it is now what is called a monopsony which can dictate its prices to its suppliers. I m quite surprised these megamergers have been authorised by competition authorities. There is clearly abuse of market power. Raising one s voice is completely useless given the power imbalance. The only alternative is to leave the industry, which I think is the best alternative because it will become worse with each passing year.
[Edited at 2022-07-21 01:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 16:04
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
| How to negotiate | Jul 21, 2022 |
Don't despair! Consolidation offers new agencies the chance to grow and take the place of the ones that were acquired. It's the circle of life.
I think the directors of the major agencies are actually feeling insecure despite their big profits, feeling they have to keep growing and keep cutting costs in order to stay in business.
As for negotiation tactics:
@Vladimir Pochinov: You're right, but you're arguing too much. It's not a debate. The original post ... See more Don't despair! Consolidation offers new agencies the chance to grow and take the place of the ones that were acquired. It's the circle of life.
I think the directors of the major agencies are actually feeling insecure despite their big profits, feeling they have to keep growing and keep cutting costs in order to stay in business.
As for negotiation tactics:
@Vladimir Pochinov: You're right, but you're arguing too much. It's not a debate. The original post shows that they can always find a pretext to ask for lower rates. As Thomas T. Frost says, it's all about being willing to walk away. I discussed this in more detail in a talk from 2009 which is still relevant - see https://cfcdn.proz.com/event_resources/event124_presentation307.pdf
[Edited at 2022-07-21 13:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Willingness to walk away | Jul 21, 2022 |
Edwin den Boer wrote:
As for negotiation tactics:
@Vladimir Pochinov: You're right, but you're arguing too much. It's not a debate. The original post shows that they can always find a pretext to ask for lower rates. As Thomas T. Frost says, it's all about being willing to walk away.
Edwin, I'm prepared to walk away any time. I walk away from about 95% of potential clients (or, to be precise, they walk away when they learn my rates). And I drop existing clients occasionally.
Yes, I always present my case when negotiating prices. And no, I don't want to be fighting to keep a client. Otherwise, I'll have to compromise on prices or something else to keep them happy. Well, I prefer to seek clients who would see and respect my value.
| | | | | Boundaries blurring away | Jul 21, 2022 |
I found this girl on what I then first learned the name of: Breadtube. She did well-researched videos on different topics, and I decided to watch a few. As a trained linguist, she earned her bread by teaching people how to write. The main point of the first video I watched, however, was that all sorts of prescriptions like the ones you get from Grammarly were actually deleterious: writers should be free to choose ways to express themselves. I commented saying that, as a teacher, she was supposed... See more I found this girl on what I then first learned the name of: Breadtube. She did well-researched videos on different topics, and I decided to watch a few. As a trained linguist, she earned her bread by teaching people how to write. The main point of the first video I watched, however, was that all sorts of prescriptions like the ones you get from Grammarly were actually deleterious: writers should be free to choose ways to express themselves. I commented saying that, as a teacher, she was supposed to have an idea of what good writing is and how it's different from bad writing – otherwise, why even bother teaching anyone? She didn't reply (no surprise here). In her other videos, things started to get more puzzling for a person like me. According to her, we have no business judging about the quality of someone's writing, everything is supposed to be normalized and equalized, even complete illiteracy (of the kind caused by laziness rather than dyslexia). Compassion and inclusion are what really matters. I've been noticing a similar trend in the translation market. Who cares if someone's translation makes someone else cringe at how badly it's written? It's still understandable, isn't it? Well, even if it's not, who cares. Do you want to make less-than-perfect translators jobless? How about we stick a label on you, you elitist sonofab*** with your Darwinian ideas? Don't harbor no illusions, baby. MT will eat you for breakfast tomorrow ▲ Collapse
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David GAY
Local time: 16:04
English to French
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Edwin den Boer wrote:
Don't despair! Consolidation offers new agencies the chance to grow and take the place of the ones that were acquired. It's the circle of life.
I think the directors of the major agencies are actually feeling insecure despite their big profits, feeling they have to keep growing and keep cutting costs in order to stay in business.
As for negotiation tactics:
The said company is not new. Their practice of lowering the rates of their translators is by no means new either. Despite these practices, they have always found willing translators who like being squeezed like lemons. They are very profitable. That s why they were able to buy so many companies. The companies they took over were very profitable too and their owners have received big money for their stake. Now, due to the fact that they control more than 80 percent of the translation market in certain pairs,there s no room for negotiation left.That s a monopsony. Check what it is. Now they have millions of translations in their database and can leverage them to feed MT engines. So quite soon, they won t need human translators any more.
[Edited at 2022-07-21 16:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2022-07-21 23:39 GMT]
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David GAY wrote:
They are very profitable. That s why they were able to buy so many companies. The companies they took over were very profitable too and their owners have received big money for their stake.
These are the recent figures for one of the gobbled-up companies. This one used to be a good agency in the pre-gobble era, and they had nice people. If staff at the gobbled-up companies don't like it either, it could harm profitability and client and staff retention. Nasty management may not only be nasty to their suppliers but also to their own staff. If that happens, they will need to replace experienced staff with people who may not know what they are doing.
Here's another one:
This one is still earning money:
This one is the Death Star:
If they continue this way, they'll end up self-destructing.
| | | | | From their employees | Jul 21, 2022 |
I found these comments about the company at Google Maps (machine-translated and edited a bit, originally in French, but if I post the original, the company can be found with a Google search):
I'm no longer feeling down after leaving this completely out-of-touch company. I changed jobs regularly, technical support, pre-sales consultant, solution architect, etc. But never the salary to match, well below the median for the job and managed by a small-time startup nat ... See more I found these comments about the company at Google Maps (machine-translated and edited a bit, originally in French, but if I post the original, the company can be found with a Google search):
I'm no longer feeling down after leaving this completely out-of-touch company. I changed jobs regularly, technical support, pre-sales consultant, solution architect, etc. But never the salary to match, well below the median for the job and managed by a small-time startup nation without a clue as to what he was doing. I wanted to get involved as a dev, on an internal project in the middle of a disaster that could have been turned around and I was mocked copiously. Now I'm a developer for a great insurance company, I start at 9am, I leave at 5:30pm, they're happy with my work and I don't have anyone coming to bust my balls with their "client" to whom they sold anything and for whom you have to pick up the crumbs. Applicants, avoid. Trainees, why not. Clients, it's your choice...
Formerly known as "XXXXXXXX", this company has been buying up small translation agencies for a few years now, to which it then applies its "express" management model, i.e. work done in a hurry in order to make a profit, without worrying about quality.
Young, highly underpaid employees, almost all of whom have just graduated from school, and a hellish internal atmosphere. The pressure is palpable.
There's also a comment from a client that complains about poor quality. Maybe we don't need to worry so much about this outfit after all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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| What is that? | Jul 21, 2022 |
Their accounting figures? If so, maybe they're just cheating on their taxes.
Thomas T. Frost wrote: David GAY wrote:
They are very profitable. That s why they were able to buy so many companies. The companies they took over were very profitable too and their owners have received big money for their stake. These are the recent figures for one of the gobbled-up companies. This one used to be a good agency in the pre-gobble era, and they had nice people. If staff at the gobbled-up companies don't like it either, it could harm profitability and client and staff retention. Nasty management may not only be nasty to their suppliers but also to their own staff. If that happens, they will need to replace experienced staff with people who may not know what they are doing. Here's another one: This one is still earning money: This one is the Death Star: If they continue this way, they'll end up self-destructing.
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David GAY
Local time: 16:04
English to French
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| their policy | Jul 21, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: David GAY wrote:
They are very profitable. That s why they were able to buy so many companies. The companies they took over were very profitable too and their owners have received big money for their stake. These are the recent figures for one of the gobbled-up companies. This one used to be a good agency in the pre-gobble era, and they had nice people. If staff at the gobbled-up companies don't like it either, it could harm profitability and client and staff retention. Nasty management may not only be nasty to their suppliers but also to their own staff. If that happens, they will need to replace experienced staff with people who may not know what they are doing. If they continue this way, they'll end up self-destructing.
Their policy is to destroy the companies they take over. I m quite surprised the employee count of the two first companies is higher even though the turnover has fallen. Once they are an empty shell, they merge. The ultimate goal is to reduce competition.
[Edited at 2022-07-21 23:49 GMT]
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 16:04
English to French
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| the only winner | Jul 21, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Formerly known as "XXXXXXXX", this company has been buying up small translation agencies for a few years now, to which it then applies its "express" management model, i.e. work done in a hurry in order to make a profit, without worrying about quality.
Young, highly underpaid employees, almost all of whom have just graduated from school, and a hellish internal atmosphere. The pressure is palpable.
There's also a comment from a client that complains about poor quality. Maybe we don't need to worry so much about this outfit after all.
the only winner will be MT because clients will soon realize that it s pointless to pay for this kind of service. So they ll soon find that MT is not bad after all and it s free.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:04
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| And this represents the "winners"... | Jul 22, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
If they continue this way, they'll end up self-destructing.
Thanks for this Thomas. Funny, isn't it, that people continue to insist that such agencies must be raking it in. The evidence suggests that most are on single- or at best low double-digit margins, when they're making money at all.
And of course this doesn't even take survivorship bias into account. Given that we know very little about how many new agencies are started every year, how many fail every year, and what their finances look like at the end of every year, one would think that people would be cautious about making sweeping statements about agency fortunes.
I am also mildly amused by the people who bemoan their own lack of success, and seem to think agencies make megabucks for nothing. "If it's that easy then why not try it yourself?" I think to myself.
Geneviève talks about rebelling, but the most subversive act is the simplest: say no when clients offer bad terms.
And to be honest about finding another livelihood if what you're doing isn't working out for you. Nobody has a right to success in their favoured line of work, whether that be in acting, selling real estate, dentistry - or translation.
Regards,
Dan
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