| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Make good clients look good on the job board Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Bernhard Sulzer 
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | The big picture | Aug 31, 2022 |
Teresa Borges wrote: I do agree that good agencies deserve recognition, but that being said some of the very good agencies I have been working with are not on Proz. Selfishly I prefer it that way 
It's not in our interest that jobs go to the lowest bidder. I'm happy for you that you get enough work from great clients, but in the big scheme of things, it hurts us all, some more than others, when projects are carried out for unbelievably low prices and taken away from professionals.
I feel a little bit like Don Quixote here. Or am I Rodney Dangerfield?
Some support please?!
In any case, I don't see why we can't make some suggestions. As you can see, staff is reading this.
And it never hurts to raise awareness about rates.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:37
French to English
Teresa Borges wrote: I do agree that good agencies deserve recognition, but that being said some of the very good agencies I have been working with are not on Proz. Selfishly I prefer it that way
Yes! I've noticed that freelancers will jealously guard any well-paying clients, and maybe only refer very good friends to them, in private. Translators will often tell beginners to look out for boutique agencies, but nobody ever says "why don't you try Language Solutions Unlimited in London, they pay well and send interesting projects".
| | | | | Naming names | Aug 31, 2022 |
Kay Denney wrote:
Yes! I've noticed that freelancers will jealously guard any well-paying clients, and maybe only refer very good friends to them, in private. Translators will often tell beginners to look out for boutique agencies, but nobody ever says "why don't you try Language Solutions Unlimited in London, they pay well and send interesting projects".
Well, we're not able to name names here for some reason. I am happy to elsewhere (being so amazeballs that I need not fear competition).
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You’re right I’ve recommended well-paying clients to a selected few colleagues who also have done the same thing, but I’m not going to trumpet who they are and what they do. Knowing your competition is smart business…
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | This is about improving this site and our industry | Aug 31, 2022 |
Kay Denney wrote: Teresa Borges wrote: I do agree that good agencies deserve recognition, but that being said some of the very good agencies I have been working with are not on Proz. Selfishly I prefer it that way Yes! I've noticed that freelancers will jealously guard any well-paying clients, and maybe only refer very good friends to them, in private. Translators will often tell beginners to look out for boutique agencies, but nobody ever says "why don't you try Language Solutions Unlimited in London, they pay well and send interesting projects".
Let me just say Kay this isn't what I am proposing -... to personally recommend good outsourcers to translators [edited]. Although they should know what constitutes a good outsourcer.
It's about improving this job board and this site. Big scheme of things you know. I'll keep trying.
[Edited at 2022-08-31 15:39 GMT]
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 13:37
Japanese to English
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Bottom-feeding agencies should really be excluded from the site. This would be in the interest of translators and is a concrete way of improving the site which is bogged down with agencies that have no respect for translators. It would also indicate that proz.com have respect for translators.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:37
French to English
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Let me just say Kay this isn't what I am proposing -... to personally recommend good outsourcers to translators [edited]. Although they should know what constitutes a good outsourcer.
It's about improving this job board and this site. Big scheme of things you know. I'll keep trying.
[Edited at 2022-08-31 15:39 GMT]
I fully realise that, Bernhard. Teresa and I are just explaining why translators who do work with wonderful agencies are not going to shout it from the rooftops.
To look at it from the agency's point of view: when I first worked at an agency, we were pretty high-end. We never advertised here for translators. We had a small set of translators, probably no more than a dozen in each language pair, and we always started by offering a job to the best one for that job, then worked down the list if they refused.
When nobody was available, we would ask our translators whether they could recommend anyone. We would always reassure them that they would always get first refusal and the recommended translator would be offered jobs only when they refused. That way we got several more great translators!
On a few rare occasions I went to the ITI website to find a translator. Some turned out to be not all that great and we dropped them, others were added to our database.
If somebody went and recommended us on a website like this one, with an ensuing avalanche of emails from translators hoping to get work from us, we'd just delete the emails and curse whoever mentioned us on the website.
We did get a mention on the BB once, from a translator who hadn't been paid on time. It didn't change anything at all, except the boss told me to no longer send work to that translator. He did get paid of course.
As has been said so often here, the best agencies are the boutique agencies, which we definitely were (prior to being bought out). Boutique agencies are mostly small, mostly specialised in specific industries, and they maintain quality by remaining exclusive. They do not want publicity like that.
[Edited at 2022-09-01 09:10 GMT]
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I run my business as a very small boutique agency (I’m not sure the name “boutique” fits what we are because we are just two translators, but here it goes for the sake of “labelling”). We translate mainly EU documents and we work exclusively from and into European Portuguese. Even though our BB has just a lonely “5”, I’m flooded everyday with CVs from people all over the world who don’t know a single word of Portuguese (today until now only 11, but occasionally I’ve received ... See more I run my business as a very small boutique agency (I’m not sure the name “boutique” fits what we are because we are just two translators, but here it goes for the sake of “labelling”). We translate mainly EU documents and we work exclusively from and into European Portuguese. Even though our BB has just a lonely “5”, I’m flooded everyday with CVs from people all over the world who don’t know a single word of Portuguese (today until now only 11, but occasionally I’ve received over 50), so I just imagine what would happen to those good agencies with great positive exposure on the job board…
P.S. I feel that all of us would gain if Proz was able to attract more well-paying clients, but I don’t think you’re holding the solution…
Thank you, anyway, for the effort! ▲ Collapse
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| Job postings don't have to include the rate | Sep 1, 2022 |
Bernard,
If I remember correctly, outsourcers are not required to include rates when they post a job, I think it is only an option.
So I am not sure how ProZ.com could obtain that info.
Most outsourcers (at least the serious ones) will have the freelancer sign an NDA or a general agreement that includes a confidentiality clause, so the freelancer isn't free to disclose the details of the work relationship, including rates.
In addition, as others mentioned, outsourcers the... See more Bernard,
If I remember correctly, outsourcers are not required to include rates when they post a job, I think it is only an option.
So I am not sure how ProZ.com could obtain that info.
Most outsourcers (at least the serious ones) will have the freelancer sign an NDA or a general agreement that includes a confidentiality clause, so the freelancer isn't free to disclose the details of the work relationship, including rates.
In addition, as others mentioned, outsourcers themselves may not want to be known as "best paying" clients because of the potential spamming from users of this site.
I remember many years ago there were ideas floating around about a more detailed review system for the BB with different evaluation categories, such as rates, communication, deadlines, etc, but it never materialized.
[Edited at 2022-09-02 11:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Another thought | Sep 1, 2022 |
If the outsourcer starts stating the rate on the job board, all multilingual projects will have to be posted individually as for the same job prices differ from one language to the other. EN-SV is not paid the same as EN-PT, is it?
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Not disclosing rates is fine | Sep 1, 2022 |
Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
Bernard,
If I remember correctly, outsourcers are not required to include rates when they post a job, I think it is only an option.
So I am not sure how could ProZ obtain that info.
Most outsourcers (at least the serious ones) will have the freelancer sign an NDA or a general agreement that includes a confidentiality clause, so the freelancer isn't free to disclose the details of the work relationship, including rates.
In addition, as others mentioned, outsourcers themselves may not want to be known as "best paying" clients because of the potential spamming from users of this site.
I remember many years ago there were ideas floating around about a more detailed review system for the BB with different evaluation categories, such as rates, communication, deadlines, etc, but it never materialized.
Hi Katalin,
I'm fine with rate ranges not being disclosed at all. I suggested that years ago.
But if outsourcers feel like they have to "tell" translators their budget, then I would prefer that better rates in the community range are being emphasized somehow - a prominent disclaimer that they are within the community range, a range suggested/reported by 80% or however many reporting translators.
Or make the bad ones appear in big red and add a warning that these are not community rates but much worse.
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Or make the bad ones appear in big red and add a warning that these are not community rates but much worse.
I don’t go to the job board very often but I’ve seen occasionally a warning saying “The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency”.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Teresa Borges wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Or make the bad ones appear in big red and add a warning that these are not community rates but much worse. I don’t go to the job board very often but I’ve seen occasionally a warning saying “The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency”.
Problem is that there are too many of them and people don't know any better than to work for these rates anyway.
So I'm only here to make people aware that this is a platform where these low-budget rates are continuously quoted and then worked for.
Not good for the industry. Let's keep working on changing it.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Mike Donlin wrote:
Hi Bernhard,
ProZ.com does not get involved with rates charged for services as that relationship is between the freelancer and the client.
Your idea surely comes from a good place. Perhaps there are other ways to indicate the most attractive outsourcers that could be added to the job posting area.
...
Mike
PS: How is telling people that outsourcers demand to pay less than what 80% of reporting translators charge ok for you... but highlighting that outsourcers post within a range that's equivalent to the reported community rates is not?
In any case, I think I'm about 14 years too late with all my concerns. No one cares and the jobs posted on here are mostly just awful and getting worse.
This isn't something that people are willing to change or believe it can be changed. Sad and not good for us translators.
Just one more thought. When you say Proz does not get involved with rates, it's a little bit like saying Twitter doesn't get involved with what certain people are posting. Difference is Twitter does. Still. Thank God.
I'm done.
[Edited at 2022-09-05 05:14 GMT]
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 13:37
Japanese to English
+ ...
I quite agree with Bernard. What does one get for a $120 annual proz.com membership? Grotty clients with subnormal rates. It's not only the agencies that have gone downhill.
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