| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61] > | 這算是翻譯 (Is this considered translation to you?) Thread poster: Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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Julia Zou 
China
Local time: 21:48
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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Yueyin Sun wrote:
我很赞成你的认真态度。通常真正水平不高者是不会说自己“水平有限”的，因为缺乏自信。而敢于说自己“水平有限”的人却反而是充满自信和有水平的。你这样认真地干下去，肯定大有希望！
谢谢乐音！
不过最好不要表扬我，我这个人一点也经不起表扬。:-) 倒是批评的话还能接受一、二。
其实，我知道我还有a long row to hoe. 也不知道还要锄多久的地才能赶得上乐音老师您呢。:-)
| | | | Zhoudan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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不过到了4000的点位上，也应该相继出货了。今天中午跟朋友吃饭，有一位说，她家保姆用2万元本金，赚了40万元！正好儿子结婚好买房！
jyuan_us wrote:
原因是﹐ 我老婆看上一套房子﹐ 找我要錢﹐ 我的暫時無法取出就沒給她。我說那你把股票都出來吧﹐結果幾十萬全出來了。
三天以後發生的五卅。
只能說這叫幸運。
| | | | Shaunna (X)
United States
Local time: 09:48
English to Chinese
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是啊，我就是为大家的牙齿考虑，没敢多说呢。
你实在是谦虚。
Juliazou wrote:
我们已经有互相吹捧的嫌疑了，再继续下去，各位看官就要倒牙了。;-)
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
http://www.irct.org
碰巧在 DW 上看到一支宣传短片，提到这个网站，顺道看了一下内容。
天底下存在的不平恐怕不是幸运的人们所能得知的。让那些不幸落入滥权者手中的人们知道如何获得协助，应该是功德一件。
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Sunny Xia
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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“老毛一挥手：下乡！
老邓一挥手：下海！
老江一挥手：下岗！
老胡一挥手：下跌！
还得意洋洋的说：我就是胡紧套, 还怕套不死你! ”
“我交了高昂的门票钱,爬上山顶,站在悬崖上欣赏着壮丽的景色
这时候收门票的管理员上来对我说:你站悬崖上太危险,会掉下去的.
我说:不会,只要你不揣我,就不会掉下去.
管理员说:我不会揣你的.
我说:那我就放心了.
于是转身继续看风景,管理员从背后伸起一脚,把我揣下了悬崖”
五卅“惨案后，股民们苦中作乐，用生动、幽默的语言写下了自己的心情。我没有买国内股票，就是怕大起大落。是否应该买买国外的股票，似乎更有可持续发展性。
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
Sunny Xia wrote:
五卅“惨案后，股民们苦中作乐，用生动、幽默的语言写下了自己的心情。我没有买国内股票，就是怕大起大落。是否应该买买国外的股票，似乎更有可持续发展性。
打麻将不能全靠手气，炒股同样不能盲目投资。股市崩盘往往是股民自己贪婪所必须承担的后果。政府所能监督到的部分极小。出怨气要找对对象呀。
顺道说个小故事。上小学时，学校后面是一片西瓜田，夏天到了，学校里的小朋友在中午休息时间会跑去田里偷吃西瓜。有一天下午开始上课时，班导师发现五个小朋友不见了，问起同学，大家都不好意思说，后来一位同学还是说了：他们都坐在西瓜田里站不起来。
原来那些小朋友在田里偷西瓜吃，一方面为了不让人发现而坐下，一方面又由于拼命吃，所以吃涨了肚皮，站起来会痛，听到上课铃声时还是起不来，一个个坐在田里哭着。
这像不像盲目投资的股民呢？
[Edited at 2007-06-02 11:46]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:48
Chinese to English
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Wenjer,
Instead of only making a general observation and blanket statement, I probably should have elaborated some more and backed up my comments with some detailed critique. I definitely don’t want to be thought of as a hit-and-run type participant in our discussions.  So I'll try to be a bit more specific... but not by much, because I don't want to get into nitpicking on certain words or phrases, a style of criti... See more Wenjer,
Instead of only making a general observation and blanket statement, I probably should have elaborated some more and backed up my comments with some detailed critique. I definitely don’t want to be thought of as a hit-and-run type participant in our discussions. So I'll try to be a bit more specific... but not by much, because I don't want to get into nitpicking on certain words or phrases, a style of criticism that we all agree is seldom productive or appreciated by anyone.
I agree with you that the overall translation was good. Like you said, the important thing was to convey the essence and spirit of the speech, which was more than adequately accomplished. No arguments there.
However, IMO an official public speech put down in print is quite different than a mere interview transcript. The translation of a presidential inaugural speech needs to meet a higher standard, especially when it comes to editing and polishing. Take for example the following sentence:
"Imperative of justice because for a very long time so many French have not felt such a strong sense of injustice, and had the feeling that the sacrifices weren't fairly shared, that everyone did not have equal rights."
I don't think that was translated very well -- For a long time have these people felt an injustice or haven't they? My guess Sarkozy meant that the sense of injustice had never been felt so strongly by so many people in a long time.
Of course, put into context, one could easily figure out what was intended. But IMO the ambiguity could have been avoided if the translation was more carefully reviewed.
Generally speaking, I see an overuse of convoluted sentences, such as the one just mentioned, almost throughout the text. IMO these are actually run-on sentences, tacked on one upon another. Run-on sentences are fine in everyday verbal conversation and even in informal forum discussions like what we have here. As you said, we as audiences or readers usually have a mental filter that filters out the noise and incongruities in informal speech. But IMO they really don't belong in a presidential inaugural speech. Even if the original speech was delivered in a run-on fashion in the French language, proper structural changes should have been made to limit the effect in the English translation.
As it were, the many convoluted sentences also led to the constant switching back and forth between singular and plural when referring to the French people, sometimes even in the same sentence. Such inconsistencies, though not a major problem, are distracting in English to say the least.
From a broader perspective, the manner in which Sarkozy articulated his multitude of "imperatives" was quite repetitious. This of course could not be blamed on translation. IMO with a little thoughtful restructuring and reorganization, the monotonous tone could have been alleviated or even eliminated. But instead the whole array of “imperatives” was left in a jumble of sentence fragments with similar patterns, which in English is not very desirable.
Anyway, these are the type of changes I see that could have improved the translation, mostly achievable through more careful review and thorough editing, through more professionalism and stringent quality control, and very importantly, not necessarily demanding a native speaker of English. 
[Edited at 2007-06-03 00:54] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:48
Chinese to English
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| Complex Sentences | Jun 2, 2007 |
BTW, I don't mean to say complex sentences are no good. It's the run-on sentences that should be avoided in writing. Here's an example of a perfectly good complex sentence from Lou Dobbs that I just happened to notice the other day...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/29/Dobbs.May30/index.html
I've been, over the years, because of our reporting on controversial issues and my strongly held beliefs on those issues, attacked, and usually pretty vigorously, by both the left wing and the right wing of this nation's media, both mainstream and otherwise, and of course the politicians that form the extremes of our political spectrum.
[Edited at 2007-06-03 06:12]
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
谢谢你这么仔细说明你对那篇就职演说翻译的意见，这对有心研究英文写作的人很有帮助。
老实说，这种翻译的讲话和林肯的盖茨堡讲话当然不能相比。虽然我的法文仅限于勉强读懂，无法欣赏文风，但比对翻译和原文，还是可以感觉到，就是没有那种气势磅礡。不过，Sarkozy 的言语有一贯的风格，那种风格既不见得宏伟也不见得高雅，应该说是平易近人，即使有时�... See more 谢谢你这么仔细说明你对那篇就职演说翻译的意见，这对有心研究英文写作的人很有帮助。
老实说，这种翻译的讲话和林肯的盖茨堡讲话当然不能相比。虽然我的法文仅限于勉强读懂，无法欣赏文风，但比对翻译和原文，还是可以感觉到，就是没有那种气势磅礡。不过，Sarkozy 的言语有一贯的风格，那种风格既不见得宏伟也不见得高雅，应该说是平易近人，即使有时咄咄逼人，还算也叫人明白他的 imperatives 是些什么东西——讲白了：老子就是认为你们要的是这些东西，我来帮你们争取；不过，话讲在前头，不会没有牺牲的，而且我要让大家公平牺牲！
However, IMO an official public speech put down in print is quite different than a mere interview transcript. The translation of a presidential inaugural speech needs to meet a higher standard, especially when it comes to editing and polishing. Take for example the following sentence:
"Imperative of justice because for a very long time so many French have not felt such a strong sense of injustice, and had the feeling that the sacrifices weren't fairly shared, that everyone did not have equal rights."
I don't think that was translated very well -- For a long time have these people felt an injustice or haven't they? My guess Sarkozy meant that the sense of injustice had never been felt so strongly by so many people in a long time.
Of course, put into context, one could easily figure out what was intended. But IMO the ambiguity could have been avoided if the translation was more carefully reviewed.
基于以上我对 Sarkozy 风格的分析，你对英文翻译文风的批评我很能理解：原文就是那副德行，要审修英译，编辑成另一种比较“正式”的样态，我看那些幕僚恐怕会是一个头两个大。
我倒同意你的其它批评，尤其是复合句的使用、绕来绕去的说词，在法语里也许不费解，而且可能很顺口、顺耳，但翻译成英文确实有些让人觉得扭扭捏捏。
BTW, I don't mean to say complex sentences are no good. It's the run-on sentences that should be avoided in writing. Here's an example of a perfectly good complex sentence from Lou Dobbs that I just happened to notice the other day...
哈哈哈，依我看法，run-on sentences 恰巧是那小子的说话风格，我看打死那些幕僚群里的翻译者也难改掉这个问题。
Lou Dobbs 的复合句主要是由于断句的地方不影响听众 (或读者) 往后衔接主题的期待，所以听起来顺畅。这方面的技巧，在 Sarkozy 的法语讲话里也许达到了，但英译和德译确实有缺失。我个人以为这一点和语言文化心理有点关系，翻译者如果不熟悉译入语言的写作技巧，很难调整语句达到理通言顺的水平。大多数的翻译者，只要没有误解，只能先达到道理还说得通的程度；要让言语也流畅，那可需要时间推敲。我看，有两种可能：一是，如果 Sarkozy 将来的作为大大成功，使得法国达到他描绘的前景；另是，如果 Sarkozy 将来的作为大大失败，法国达到的正巧与他描绘的前景背道而驰；那么，他这个就职讲话会被再次仔细推敲翻译成其它外文；否则，就职讲话只是例行公事，过眼云烟，外文翻译说得过去就行了，没有人会太在意的。
[Edited at 2007-06-03 13:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shaunna (X)
United States
Local time: 09:48
English to Chinese
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| I do expect higher quality for the translation of a presidential inaugural speech | Jun 3, 2007 |
I definitely don't want to be a hit-and-run participant either. I will just point out a couple of the places, in the part of the English translation that I read, that made me think right away the translation for a presidential inaugural speech should have been better.
To all those who want to serve their country, I say that I am ready to work with you and that I shall not ask them to renounce their beliefs, betray their friendships or forget their history. It is for them to decide, in all conscience as free men and women, how they want to serve France.
IMO:
a) If "I say" only covers "I am ready to work with you", then it should be "I say that I am ready to work with you, and I shall not..." (the "that" should not be there)
b) Or, if "I say" covers all the rest of the sentence, which is suggested by the "that" after "and", then all the "them" in this paragraph should be "you", or "you" be "them".
On 6 May there was only one victory, that of the France who doesn't want to die, who wants order but also movement, who wants progress, but wants fraternity, who wants efficiency, but wants justice, who wants identity, but wants an opening-up.
At the beginning there is the "wants... but also..." structure, which is fine to me. Then there is the "wants..., but wants..." structure. IMHO the "wants..., but wants..." structure is confusing logically. Should be "wants... but also...", as in the beginning, or "wants..., but wants.... as well", or something else.
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I do agree with Wenjer that content is more important than presentation. However, when the translation of a presidential inaugural speech distracts readers as much as this one does to me, I truly think it needs improvement.
wherestip wrote: Wenjer, Instead of only making a general observation and blanket statement, I probably should have elaborated some more and backed up my comments with some detailed critique. I definitely don’t want to be thought of as a hit-and-run type participant in our discussions. ......
[Edited at 2007-06-03 06:39]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | Ha, ha, ha.... | Jun 3, 2007 |
Shaunna wrote: I definitely don't want to be a hit-and-run participant either. I will just point out a couple of the places, in the part of the English translation that I read, that made me think right away the translation for a presidential inaugural speech should have been better. To all those who want to serve their country, I say that I am ready to work with you and that I shall not ask them to renounce their beliefs, betray their friendships or forget their history. It is for them to decide, in all conscience as free men and women, how they want to serve France.
Shaunna,
You see, I read the speech first in German and found almost the same problem of perception at first.
All denen, die ihrem Land dienen wollen, sage ich: ich bin bereit, mit ihnen zusammenzuarbeiten, und werde nicht von ihnen verlangen, dass sie ihren Überzeugungen abschwören, ihre Freundschaften verraten oder ihre Geschichte vergessen. Sie selbst haben als freie Menschen nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen für sich zu entscheiden, wie sie Frankreich dienen wollen.
However, I turned all the pronouns after "sage ich:" into the German "you", that is "ich bin bereit, mit Ihnen zusammenzuarbeiten", "nicht von Ihnen verlangen, daß Sie Ihren Überzeugungen abschwören, Ihre...." and "wie Sie Frankreich dienen wollen."
It is no problem for me at all by understanding the pronouns in capital. I am pretty sure that in the French original it won't be a problem either. But it could be a problem in English, because "to all those who want to serve their country" would not match with "you."
As to your next quote about the "wants..., but...", it is obvous that "wants..., but... as well" is more appropriate. The German translation resorts to "... wünscht, aber auch..." (wants..., but also...) which wouldn't be a problem for someone who is used to French or English and who happens to read German as well, but for me, it is something peculiar, because German natives would never say something like that. They would say it a bit meticulously "... nicht nur... wünscht, sondern auch...."
I guess, the French would find something funny in this presidential inaugural speech as well. But that's for one day only, the message is delivered and people wouldn't change because of a speech, anyway. They stay the same, perhaps with a little bit pondering and nothing further.
For me, it's all right with the message Sarkozy sent to his people.
[Edited at 2007-06-03 13:49]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:48
Chinese to English
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| Keep your eye on the ball | Jun 4, 2007 |
Yueyin Sun wrote: Zhoudan wrote:
今天加征印花税，股市大跌
一个悲情股民的灭门之灾！ 
Another recent article for reference -- keep in mind that's all articles like this one are good for. Nobody really knows what measures, if any, are going to be adopted by authorities to rein in rampant speculation. Nobody really knows the future direction of market movement.
But always be careful not to get caught in a stampede, whether it's panic buying or panic selling. As mentioned before, greed and fear are one's biggest enemies in stock investing.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/beijing-needs-new-tools-rein/story.aspx?guid={08EDC2A7-E9C1-4554-B9F5-6B7A4900E4CD}
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 21:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | ysun
United States
Local time: 08:48
English to Chinese
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| David Shen
United States
Local time: 06:48
English to Chinese
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| Don't forget to Bookmark this page! (Ctrl+D) | Jun 13, 2007 |
Yueyin Sun wrote: 歌颂猫棚子”？不错，我要是赢钱了我只会歌颂拉斯维加斯，绝不是什么猫棚子！ 
I mean all our jokes seem pale now.
[Edited at 2007-06-13 18:10]
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